I don't know, but I'm beginning to smell a rat I think. All this talk of Aragorn possibly being in the movie. Gimli definitely not being in the movie. Whether Legolas will or won't...

Let's put things out logically.

Gimli could slide into the movie as Gloin (find a different glue, or digitally change his face a bit - hey - big budget!). Gloin does not take such a big role. A lot of his shots would be of him as one among thirteen. Use a stunt double and digitally stick on his face if non-speaking? Dead easy - if you know how.

Legolas, legitimately could be in movie - though as a cameo, very few lines, just to please the fans. Orlando could play Thranduil even, with minor make-up changes. He's Immortal. He does not age!

Anyhow - to the Bigger Picture!

To put in Aragorn and the White Council would require so much sub-creating and movie time, we'd definitely need three movies, or else the whole thing would be too rushed! The movie makers can't risk anything but a movie of the quality and 'pacing' of LOTR. Tonal changes between Bilbo and the White Council sequences would be too extreme - unless they're making The Hobbit (Adults Only) Version. (If so, they'll have to cut out all the lighter scenes - and that will leave nothing left but DT's imagination!)

I don't think DT can do it. The Hobbit will be The Hobbit. The movie makers are playing with us with all this talk of showing events in Southern Mirkwood - because they know it can't be done even half-well in the space of two movies!

The White Council will come in "Gandalf the Grey (The Movie)," just as I've always suspected! "Money, money, money, isn't funny, it's a rich man's world...!" (Abba)

Yippee-yay! No White Council!!!


Odo

Well, I think two movies will be enough to cover the extra material Odo.

But I happen to agree that balancing the different tonal quality of the more "grown-up" material with the "kid-stuff" presents difficulties as Del Toro has recently indicated that the material will be interspersed throughout the films instead of putting the White Council mostly in the second film.

Still, if anyone has a hope of pulling this off, I think Del Toro could. The Hellboy franchise seems to balance "juvenile" with "adult" quite well. Terry Gilliam could have pulled it off years ago as Time Bandits is basically his version of The Hobbit (Baron Von Munchausen also had that same succesful blend of "childlike imagination" and edginess).

Del Toro seems to have a similar mindset as Gilliam, so I really think this is going to work out, however he arranges the story.

GB

I feel we are close to entering "Groundhog Day", with this debate, Dear Beard. You know, you can be quite stubborn when I'm right!

I never knew Time Bandit's was basically The Hobbit!!!

I didn't pick that at all.

I don't know for sure, but perhaps (just perhaps) your ideas on 'adaptations' are even more novel than I realized! Phew!

I won't tell Eldorion you said it. He'll probably have a fit!

Odo

Well, just consider the basic plot of Time Bandits Odo:

A gang of Roguish Dwarfs draft a reluctant innocent young British Lad (i.e. a "Hobbit") into their quest to steal treasure.

When I first saw the film as a teenager in 1981, it struck me as a very unique re-visioning of The Hobbit .

GB

I can actually see your point. It sounded pretty outrageous though!

Odo

Here it is, Mr Tyrant.

This began as the Fundamentalist Purist position against The White Council being in The Hobbit (my oposition, that is).

Odo

Why am I always trying to catch up with you guys (8 pages later)?

I have to go to a quote from Peter Jackson, which in paraphrase is "the fans will eventually forgive us for changes to storyline and even to character, so long as we stay true to middle earth. Assuming we keep that intact, the fans will say 'well, he royally screwed that movie up, but at least middle earth is still there so we can always go back again and do it right.'"

I like GB's idea of keeping the most Hobbitish parts together in the first movie, then letting us wander a bit during the darker second movie and see things we might have otherwise missed. It's still middle earth.

And though I remain royally pissed at PJ for the parts he screwed up, I thank him for the wonderful visit to a place I love. So long as orcs/goblins don't stop and take a vote at forks in the road instead of fighting about it, and the Misty Mountains don't look like the rolling Appalachians; so long as elves still sing in the trees, I'll be glad it got made. I burned out my rigid book faithfulness in a series of hissy fits after each LoTR movie and don't plan to let myself get worked up in a huff this time. I think Del Toro will get the world right despite any other sins he may commit.

No, no and no... gee you yes-men upset me, Halfwise. People who don't fight back get trampled down!

I suspect a Tyrantean Conspiracy to get me all huffed up again!

Was I just a rabbit in your trap, Mr Tyrant! (Bloody Scots! )

Sauron's Soldiers, I name thee all thus!

Sorry to upset you further Odo, and for the record I don't like what I'm about to speculate either but I suspect it will come to pass, after a reread of the Quest for Erebor I suspect I can see how they are going to do this (and given the previous use of extra material in LoTR), I reckon the story of TH and the addition of the WC (that's not a good abbreviation!) will run consecutively, intercutting between the two. Why? Because there's is a line in UT where Gandalf implies removing the Necromancer happened in the nick of time for Thorin and co. From this I can see them dramatically heightening this one line so that the outcome of events in Erebor hinge entirely upon the success of the White Council. Its cheap drama and LoTR the films proved, if nothing else, PJ and co are masters of cheap drama.

Did the 300 Spartans give up just because they thought they might lose the fight? (Yeah, they were pretty stupid, but having principles do make you stupid. I call it Righteous Stupidity!)

Did Sir Edmund Hillary say: Oh #*^^ me dead! That's a #*^#@&@ big mountain! Even if I make it to the top, I'll freeze me balls off! (No, he didn't - Sir Edmund never swore - at least not in public... He was a gentleman!)

So why should I accept the proposed desecration of The Hobbit? I know I am but a hobbit-sized shadow standing in the shadow of the Great Tolkien - a small Hobbit shadow from Rushock Bog (below Needlehole) - but does that mean I can't continue to fight against those Dark Forces bearing the Flame of Udun ? That evil flame, unimaginably dark, darker than any flame you could possibly imagine! (In Middle-earth it's possible, Halfwise, trust me!)

Yes, I am but one wee Hobbit, but remember this fine and stirring song:

"Give me ten Hobbits,
Ten stout hearted Hobbits,
And I'll give you ten thousand more!"

You guys worry me with how easily you give up. (Some of you even seem to welcome this pending Wreck of the Hobbit!! )

Huffed, Hail Manwe!

I'm not ashamed to be huffed!

I'm proud to be huffed!

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow their Monstrous Movie down...!

Are you with me or are you against me

Odo Fullwise Banks

Mr Tyrant - don't...give...in... Stay out of GB's clutches. Yes, I know how persuasive he is!