GB - yes, Denethor is certainly a jerk. I just find him too one-dimensional of a jerk for my taste in the films.

As for Faramir, the worst part about his storyline to me - taking the hobbits to Osgiliath - can be explained through the changes to Frodo as he wasn't particularly trustworthy (this essay gives a nice discussion on that). However, I didn't like how he was almost corrupted by the Ring, and I thought - given the changes to Frodo - it was foolish for him to let Frodo go after seeing him almost give the Ring to the Nazgul.

I think that Faramir probably let Frodo go because he was scared of being persued by a great big flying monster and an evil, damaged wraith!

You're right about being Faramir mean to Gollum B'arelyn . but to be fair, the only one's who understood poor Smeagol, were Frodo, Gandalf, and I think Aragorn. Bilbo understood Smeagol too, but that is only referred to by Gandalf.

GB

Hello everyone, I'm back (or, at least, I'm out of bed)(this site is so addictive - it hasn't been forged in the fires of some new Dark Lord, I hope!),

Eldorion
I didn't like the way Farmer Maggot was introduced. And btw I didn't see how Sam could know it was Farmer Maggot's field when not long before he made it clear he was passing out of familiar parts of the Shire. Was Farmer Maggot so famous in Hobbiton? Was his farm a kind of natural border for Sam - and that's why he knew it? Maybe, he did. I don't know. I just got out of bed.

GB
I used the word íntelligent' for Faramir (referring to the book), but 'wiser' seems more applicable. In the book he does struggle a bit - but he sees quickly Boromir's error. That's wisdom! And resisting the Ring - Hey! That's strength! (David played PJ's version with aplomb - but T's version would have been better).

BD
I'm disappointed in you. How could you ever think Faramir was timid in any way. I just won't have it! Not even Faramir in the movie version was timid! (NB Faramir was played by an Australian. You may not know this, but in Oz we put timid people in a special camp where they're set a series of dangerous tasks which, if they survive, make them braver. Incidentally, I think this is why Australians are generally so good at sport.)


Odo

I think Faramir's struggle with (but ultimately beating) the Ring was drawn out for two purposes. One is that the Ring had been established, unintentionally, by that point in the film (as Jackson himself acknowledges) as Uber-Powerful to all who came near it.

Though a few people are shown as having Superior will power. So the other reason was to give Aragorn a stronger claim to The throne pf Middle Earth. So Faramir, Noble Numenorean blood and strength of character, Aragorn even Nobler blood and stronger character.

Anyway, it worked for me . Can you tell i'm not a "purist" ?

GB

Good old GB,

It's wonderful how you can be so right when you're so wrong!

Am I becoming a Dualist?

Odo

As the most vocal (I'm fairly sure) purist on this forum ... yes.

We went over the Faramir issue a while back, but for what it's worth, I still think that the Ueber*-powerful Ring excuse doesn't make much sense given the rejections of the Ring by Gandalf, Galadriel, and Aragorn in FOTR. And while I can appreciate wanting to distinguish Aragorn (though I feel obliged to point out that he did not become King of Middle-earth ) I don't think that was worth sacrificing Faramir.

But of course, to each his own.

*Damn umlaut-less keyboard

I can't say this ever occurred to me, but that's a very good point! I can't think of an obvious in-universe solution to this riddle other than your suggestion that Farmer Maggot was a well-known figure or that Sam knew that Merry and Pippin had a history with him.

Eldorion

I'm with you about the Ring's power. If Faramir had taken the Ring I'm sure he would have succumbed to its power fairly swiftly, but he seemed to have some natural resistance to it up front (like Gandalf and Elrond and Tom Bombadil and everyone else who knew Frodo had it but didn't immediately plan to take it off him). Some seem to be more heavily drawn to it as a starting point than others, of course (like Boromir and Denethor and Gollum).

Anyway, you've obviously been all over this Faramir business already. All I want to finish with is: I think the Faramir of the book would have been perfectly okay for the movie. In fact, the better choice!

Odo

Touche .

GB