The Hobbit Movie Forum

[Odo Banks]

It's easy to knock the LOTR Movies, but it's always easier to knock than commend. I know PJ and his team made very good movies, no easy task, even if I have myself a tendency to blindly support the "knocker" party. Anyhow, the changes he made to the story seem to be the most contentious. So, to be fair to PJ, why don't we think about the things that PJ "added"" to the story which Tolkien (if he was alive) might have been persuaded to "add" to any revision of his book.

Improving "deletions" might be noted too. For instance, should Tolkien have excised things like the Barrow-wights from LOTR?

I'll stick my head in the noose and say I think having Arwen in place of Glorfindel in "Flight to the Ford" was a superb idea (even if it's execution in the movie left much to be desired - later scenes between Aragorn and Arwen were mostly brilliant, I think!)

Anyway, what do others think?

Odo

[Gandalfs Beard]

Funnily enough, I suspect the Arwen in place of Glorfindel thing would have been the first thing Tolkien might have changed. I know he wanted to include the Arwen/Aragorn romance in the body of the story, but couldn't see how to do it at the time.

GB

[Eldorion]

I don't think he would have changed anything because of the films.

If Z[immerman] or others do so, they maybe irritated or aggrieved by the tone of many of my criticisms. If so, I am sorry (though not surprised). But I would ask them to make an effort of imagination sufficient to understand the irritation (and on occasion the resentment) of an author, who finds, increasingly as he proceeds, his work treated as it would seem carelessly in general, in places recklessly, and with no evidence signs of any appreciation of what it is all about....

[Odo Banks]

Two points come to mind, Eldorion.

The first is: I have always been curious about T's view that he was creating a Mythology that others might take up and expand (I trust I interpret my sources correctly). How does this fit with the truth that the Tolkien Estate won't have a bar of adding or expanding to his Myth (nor Eldorion neither!) Was all the talk of T starting an English Mythology which others could add to (enrich?) just pure bunkum? It was, indeed!

The second point is: this thread is not put up to seriously suggest anyone might be as presumptious as to tell T (if he was alive) that he should change anything. It's about asking interested folk on this forum to suggest what 'they' think would be an improvement if added to the text. Tolkien, quite rightly, only ever made changes he wanted to make. This subborn determiation to write exactly the book he wanted to write is totally respected. It's a key reason his works stand apart (and above, I'd argue ) all other fantasy novels.

By the way, this thread in no way encourages criticism of Tolkien's work - it's more a response prompted by love and enthusiasm and the urge to use one's imagination. I fear, seeing your quote, that you have missed the point completely!

Odo

NB I'm suddenly wondering: what would Tolkien have changed himself, if he had been Graced with the opportunity to do so? You know, he was never satisfied...

[Gandalfs Beard]

As brilliant as LotR is, I think some improvements in narrative flow were made in the films. Though it is of course highly debatable which changes Tolkien would have approved.

An example is the compressing of the time-frame between Bilbo's birthday and Frodo's leaving the Shire. And also the altering of Frodo's age. I think these changes did improve the pacing of the narrative. Though, in a sense, they captured the impression that many, many people (including myself) always gathered from the story as written.

Narratively in the book, the time-frame is compressed when Mr T simply tells us many years passed between the events in the space of a few sentences. But because such short shrift is given to Frodo's life in the Shire after Bilbo, this makes almost no impression upon the reader.

Likewise, Tolkien's description of Bilbo and Frodo's relationship always suggests a much younger Frodo than Tolkien actually explicated. I doubt that Tolkien would have altered his books to match the films, but I honestly don't think he would have been displeased with how these bits (and many others) were interpreted.

GB

[Odo Banks]

I agree GB, though in this case (I mean the passing of time) I think the movie was fine but a change would not be wanted in the book. I had no problem really with Frodo being younger - but only in the movie. (I accept a certain amount of compromise - even if a bit reluctantly). Losing Tom upsets me - youngifying Frodo I can live with (only for movie purposes!)

Bilbo was much older than Frodo. Frodo was always a youngish 50 to me! (Bilbo, come to think of it, was a youngish 111!)

Odo

NB It is a tangential thought, I know, but I was willing to accept substantially more compromise in LOTR than I am in TH. I think because TH is upfront far more filmable in my opinion, and therefore needs far less meddling with. (Away with you: White Council!)

[Eldorion]

The first is: I have always been curious about T's view that he was creating a Mythology that others might take up and expand (I trust I interpret my sources correctly). How does this fit with the truth that the Tolkien Estate won't have a bar of adding or expanding to his Myth (nor Eldorion neither!) Was all the talk of T starting an English Mythology which others could add to (enrich?) just pure bunkum? It was, indeed!

I think that it is indeed bunkum. Tolkien's dislike for changes to the story in the process of adaptation is set out quite clearly in Letter 210, from which I quoted only a small passage. The idea of creating a mythology that others could add to is mentioned in Letter 131 (I believe) as part of a sales pitch to Collins but it is part of a description of his past ideas that predated The Lord of the Rings.

I'm not entirely sure what I would change and I'm not sure if I would dare do that to someone else's work, especially LOTR. I am confident however that Tolkien himself would not have changed anything, and that is the question the title of the thread was asking.

[Odo Banks]

Eldorion. It's good to know how all the "bunkum" began, and thank you.

As to: "that is the question the thread is asking", could you please try to be a bit more subtle in your thinking on that score.

Odo

[Gandalfs Beard]

I am not sure that Tolkien would have changed anything because of the films. But he was always constantly revising, and he may have felt that some of the films changes were in line with things he himself might have changed at some point.

Is that what you're getting at Odo?

GB

[Odo Banks]

To a point, I guess. The creative process is the creative process, and this can include people suggesting ideas. I write - and I listen to suggestions. I'm not offended personally if people suggest ideas. Tolkien had a tendancy to row his own boat, so if he borrowed, he chose what to borrow; he seemed peculiarly immune to people's suggestions and ideas. Maybe he felt his stories were his stories and it was just not polite to take up other people's ideas - directly? Who knows?

Actually, the whole point of the thread was to get us forum-type-people thinking about what PJ added or deleted and wondering 'if' we were T, might we have thought about adopting any of them.

Perhaps my initial post was ambiguous. I never thought of that until Eldorion seemed to take umbrage a little... Mind you, this is no citicism of Eldorion. I respect her because she is always on the look out for Tolkien Heathens. And it might be people like me she needs to be most wary of; what with me worming my way into discussions, a simple hobbit fom Rushock Bog (but you can't know that!), saying un-Purist things at times. Hey! I understand her fears. After all, I purport to be something of a Purist myself, but then I go off and join with all you suggesters-that-change-is-sometimes-okay type people. For me this cavorting is just an intelllectual adventure (promise!), but nonetheless I 'am' consorting with the enemy! I can see my behavior would make any true Purist suspicious! You see, it's easier with you GB, you're Heathenism is more out in the open and therefore easier to combat.

Odo