According to the Tale of Years the White Council drove the Necromancer from Mirkwood. In Lotr's, in conversation with Frodo, Galadriel implies that she is in a constent contest of wills with Sauron and that with the aid of the elvish ring she keeps the darkness back and can probe Saurons' thoughts whilst he as yet cannot do the same to her.
Now I like all this but how on earth would you portray such concepts on film?
If PJ is going to give us the White Council driving out the Necromancer how will he do it? Will we have Council members actually fighting? Will Radagast be shapeshifting all the over the place, Gandalf chucking fire balls? (All of which I think would be achngly awful and completely un-Tolkien). But how else can they portray it? Any thoughts?
The Hobbit Movie Forum » Hobbit Movie
The White Council- How they going to do that then?
(304 posts)-
Posted 7 months ago #
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they could run after him with sticks..
Posted 7 months ago # -
Ayup Nora...
Won't the White Council be Wizards, Elves and Dudes sitting around a Table somewheres ... ? LOL *Ducks*
Posted 7 months ago # -
Yes but they will be a Council of some sort I assume but they 'put forth their powers' to drive the Necromancer out. Its how PJ is going to go about showing that which concerns me.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Good question Jason, as you say this is the White Council, they would not have an army as such behind them, apart from perhaps an Elvish army from either Rivendell or Lothlorien, but as far as movies go there will be I think some form of battle, I would like to see however only the wizards/Galadriel/Elrond 'fight' however, and I would prefer no real fistycuffs either, but a battle of wills, such as Gandalf had with Saruman over the body and mind of Theoden, it would be more subtle and far scarier to watch than a conventional axe weilding battle. perhaps they will surround Dol Guldur and 'will' him out with some kind of mental sword play, i think Galadriel could be seen struggling perhaps as the necromancer tries to take over her power she may take on the form of the warrior queen we saw in FOTR, and then as she regains control over herself and Nenya protects her she regains her strength and looks as usual, perhaps when she loses power the Mallorn trees start to die or Lothlorien starts to fade before her eyes, that kind of visual effect to show her power wax and wane, I know she would never have lost her power, but just flashes of a struggle, when she tries to read his mind.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I think that the trees changing might be too good and too subtle an idea for PJ. He likes spectacle. I expect a full blown wizards and elves fighting thing going on- but besides being awful the other problem perhaps with that is how do you stop it unbalancing the action on the other story line with Bilbo where the Battle of Five Armies should be the showpiece fight of the films?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Yes too many battles too close together, boring. it depends if the Nec had an orc army at DGuldur, if he did and PJ shows the kind of army on the scale of Sarumans at orthanc, I think we will be in for something 'spectacular' rather than subtle. I get the idea that the Nec wasn't too powerful at the time, so I hope its not overkill.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Imagine how much better the movies would be with all that White Council bluster and battlings left out! The Battle of Five Armies needs to stand alone - for spectacularities sake!
Posted 7 months ago # -
i think its a good chance to show what was to come as regards Gandalf and Saruman, they can be seen as having their first confrontation, Saruman can show the first signs of his subtlety and thirst for power, maybe we can see that he has been dabbling too long with the plantir and is already off his path as the leader of the Order. nothing too major just the first inklings of trouble to come. plus I will be glad to see Galadriel and Radagast, I bet he's a bit like St. Francis with his love of animals and birds.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I see a big battle with them ousting the necromancer in the first film and the battle of the 5 armies being the major battle in the second film. As to how the necromancer battle will play out i think it will probably be the elves led by Elrond and the rangers from the north who did work with the white council that drive Sauron out maybe Gandalf, Radagast and Galadriel fighting along side them breifly and Radagast having animals helping them. I believe Saruman will be sitting back watching or using some sort of magic like he did in the LOTR films while the fellowship was trying to cross over the mountain before going into Moria. But i truly believe the Necromancer will be gone by the end of film one. What I am mainly dreading is how much more influence of DelToro's will be seen in some of the characters. Weve seen what his influence has done to some of the dwarfs(axes in heads anyone)
and i whole heartedly agree Julie they should show the beginning of Saruman's downward spiral and his animosity tword Gandalf
Posted 7 months ago # -
maybe if as you say Todd they separate the two battles over two films it will be better than all in one lump. the thing is that in LOTR we saw two major battles that everyone will compare these with, I mean helms deep and the charge of the Rohirrim, they will be etched on our memories and any battle that PJ does will have to match that or people will be a bit let down, but the thing is that the Battle for 5 armies was not the great battle to save Middle Earth, it was a pretty minor in comparison, this battle was over treasure not the end of all things good in the world. so it can't be so epic surely? which means that it may end up looking a bit Narnia, with any magic beasts involved. I hope PJ goes for a different more creative way of showing the battle for Dol Guldur at least.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I agree Dol Guldur should be something different kind like a battle of wills. But how to film something like that when there are SO MANY players involved in it. I mean you Have Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Radagast, Saruman and all the other (lesser) members of the council plus if I remember correctly the dunadine rangers also helped to get the necromancer out of Mirkwood. Just how to film it where its not over the top but believable with as many characters that are sure to be involved in it.
Me personally I want to see the scenes with Thrain and Thror. esp the scene where Gandalf finds Thorin's father in the dungeons of Dol Guldur and gets the key and map they need on the journey to Erobor
Posted 7 months ago # -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=9V7zbWNznbs
suppose the seige of Dol Guldur could pan out like this?
Posted 7 months ago # -
have to check out the link when i get home from work Julia, dang I need a better phone for doing the net. But i do hope they stay a bit closer to the book and the appendixes but i think we are in for a glossy polished action filled version of the hobbit and nothing like the source material. I am beginning to think it will be the hobbit in name only. Did anyone else notice in one of the video blogs that Gollum was attacking Bilbo? I don't remember Gollum so much as touching Bilbo in the book. He was held at bay by the look of Sting and only played a cat and mouse game (never actually touching him but getting close enough to make Bilbo uncomfortable) with him until the riddle game. But in the video blog it shows Bilbo and Gollum tussling around on the ground and Gollum jumping up on Bilbo. OHHHH WELL we shall see how different they are from each other, the book and the films
Posted 7 months ago # -
The link was just a bit of fun from Monty Python Todd.
You are right about the video blog though, it wont be very good to see Bilbo and gollum fighting, as I think in the book he jumps over him and then escapes. I think there will be too much fighting like the fighting we see between the trolls and the dwarves. I hope it doesn't all turn into fight club everybody getting duffed up every 5 minutes.
Posted 7 months ago # -
ahhh Monty Python gotta love it, i always have got the british humor sometimes better than american humor. One of the best movies ever and I think its hysterical is " Still Crazy" about a british rock band who return out of retirement after 20 years and hating each other and try and make it work again... Great movie
Posted 7 months ago # -
As The Hobbit is very humorous movie, maybe the Monty Python crew could make the movie. They would better capture the "mood" of TH I think. Then PJ could do the special effects, which is his forte. Brilliant!
I have an idea about the "struggle" between the Necromancer and the Council. We could do that "European" movie-thing (Arthouse), where you see the facial expressions of characters, i.e. lengthy facial shots, little or no dialogue --- where the audience cn "read" the mood and thought of those characters.
Gandalf: "Benign but doubts beginning."
Saruman: "Inscrutable."
Galadriel: "Wary."
Radagast: "Chirpy."
Necromancer: "Beautiful and very shiny."
Gandalf: "Thoughtful."
Saruman: "Flicker in the eyes."
Galadriel: "Suspicious."
Radagast: "Barky."
Necromancer: "Shadowy at the edges."
Gandalf: "Angering - slowly."
Saruman: "In two minds."
Galadriel: "Wondering about Power and it's uses. Good or Evil?"
Radagast: "Bovine."
Necromancer: "Hard to see, cast in shadow, with a slight red (fiery) cast.
Gandalf: "Alert!"
Saruman: "Hesitant and slightly difficult looking."
Galadriel: "Adamant and stern."
Radagast: "Eagle-eyed."
Necromancer: "A silhouette with one Red Eye in the middle."
Gandalf: "Really pissed off and determinded."
Saruman: "Grudging - but only just dscernible, and no one's looking at him just then anyway."
Galadriel: "Dopey, but with lots of sparks and white fire around the circumference of her face."
Radagast: "Snarling - a lot like a very fierce though smallish dog."
Sauron: "A Dark Impenetrable Shadow-face." (Eeeeek!)Now, I have used "talking marks" to give the idea that those facial experessions actually (in a sense) reveal complicated moods and thoughts, like unspoken conversation. What melodrama! No Battle for Dol Guldur needed - it would be superfluous now.
What do you guys think?
Posted 7 months ago # -
superb, but can we have a mime that does jazz hands too?
Posted 7 months ago # -
I'm voiting for sticks...
Posted 7 months ago # -
I'm sure both your thoughts can be incorporated into my scheme, Julia and Nora, irrespective of the fact they would undermine and dramatically alter my premise, indeed, make the whole thing ridiculous. Let's face it, we're talking about the "PJ Method" here, so why not!
Posted 7 months ago # -
I'm thinking most of the white council stuff save maybe a conflict of some sorts between Saruman and Gandalf will all be in movie 1... I think they will have 1 maybe 2 scenes with the white council after the necromancer is out of Mirkwood to help show why there is the tension between Gandalf and Saruman in the LOTR series
Posted 7 months ago # -
Todd I wonder what they are going to do with the second movie? maybe we can get a hint from the name of the movie. its called There and back Again, which probably means going to the Lonely Mountain and then back to Hobbiton, what happens in between is anybodies guess.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I don't really know about spectacular or not, but one thing I'm betting on; PJ will want as little blatant sorcery as possible. You know, like how Saruman and Gandalf fight in Orthanc, they use magic, but without all the lights and over-the-top stuff you see in most movies with magic.
I don't think PJ will spend too long on it. I picture something more like the prologue the FOTR had, in that there was the prologue, and they added to it throughout the movie in little bits. Except this won't be a prologue.About Bilbo and Gollum fighting in the movie, but not in the book, I'm not really sure whether I'd like that or not. If it was done well, I suppose. But we all know PJ likes to draw out certain points to add suspense.
Posted 6 months ago # -
You know, like how Saruman and Gandalf fight in Orthanc, they use magic, but without all the lights and over-the-top stuff you see in most movies with magic.- Jana
You mean apart from the bit where Saruman hurls a fireball from the top of Orthanc and the ridiculous chuck each other round with magic staffs instead of the brillaint dialogue scene Tolkien has there? Oh yes, I feel much better now he won't do anything stupid or over the top, thanks PJ. (add your own layers of sarcasm to that, I'm running low).
Posted 6 months ago # -
I thought the wizard twirling scene in Orthanc was very silly, and the sound effects set my teeth on edge. if you ever see spoofs of LOTR they always use that scene, funny that.
Posted 6 months ago # -
I'm sure the battle at Dol Guldur will be similar to the prologue at the beginning of FOTR on a smaller scale, but longer and more drawn out. I dont believe we will see a ton of elves but maybe a few hundred, possibly some dunadine rangers. On the necromancers side with be goblins/orcs but a different breed than the ones the dwarfs encounter, and maybe a cave troll or 2 like at the end of ROTK or maybe even spiders and some of the other "dark creatures" inhabiting the dark parts of Mirkwood. It would be a good way to put a battle sequence in the first movie on a larger scale than anything that is in the first half of the book.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Yes but does the first half of the book need a battle Todd? I think not only does it not but to have one would detract from the main battle at the end which partly gets its effect from being the only battle in the book.
Posted 6 months ago # -
i agree NO the first half of the book doesn't need a battle but we are getting more than just the book I hate to say. The white council and DolGuldur were not included in the book but will be in the movies. Everyone here knows what to expect from PJ and mark my words there will be some sort of fighting in DolGuldur. The necromancer will be source of the major conflict in Movie 1 and Smaug will be the major conflict in movie 2 with the battle of the 5 armies being the climax of the second movie. PJ loves a good battle scene and there will surely be one in movie one needed or not. This wont be the book version of the Hobbit from what i can see
Posted 6 months ago # -
I'm afraid I have even less faith than you Todd in PJ. I fully expect him to intertwine the two strands so success at one will depend upon success in the other.
Posted 6 months ago # -
going off topic for a moment, but you know PJ and co said they had discarded Del Toros idea of a bridge film, well from what I understand from seeing recent articles is that they are doing just that. They are showing immediately before Bilbos party, and thats where we meet Frodo first,as they dont film in sequence I dont know exactly if they will start with the before party scene, but if thats not a bridge I dont know what is.
Posted 6 months ago #
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