The Hobbit Movie Forum » Hobbit Movie

31. Kendalf
    Member

    Lance - Then what unifying motives might the three and two armies have?

    Gandalf hears of the Necromancer's plan to seduce Smaug and use him and the Goblins to control the North (referenced in Unfinished Tales, I believe) and therefore requests that the Men, Elves and Dwarves unite to defeat his plan and establish a strong buffer-state at Erebor (whilst he and the WC take on the parallel task of driving him out of DG)?

    Gandalf hears of the Goblins' plan to wreak revenge on the North for the death of The Goblin King in the Misty Mountains and therefore requests that the Men, Elves and Dwarves unite to defeat them?

    Gandalf hears of Bolg's plan to exact revenge on Thorin and prevent the establishment of Erebor and therefore requests that the Men, Elves and Dwarves unite to prevent such an outcome?

    Oh, this is quite fun! I hope Petty's not reading, though ;-)

    Posted 3 months ago #
32. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup Lance...

    I would've thought that the Tale of Smaugs demise and the chance of a Shite-load of Treasure going Begging would be enuff Motivation for all Parties! And doesn't need changing at all, LOL !

    For me the only person with Honourable Intentions and Integrity was Bard. He merited a share truly, for the avoidance of Hardship of the Lakemen after Laketown was destroyed and maybe a small personal reward for the actual slaying for himself, but no big Brucie Bonus. Nice Bloke. Integrity.

    But I've always felt the same 'Hatred' of Thranduil that Thorin felt. That he was a Great, Greasy, Greedy Immortal, who had NO real claim in the Treasure at all. Even the Jewels of Girion... And ESPECIALLY after imprisioning them all wrongly. Dain was there to Help Thorin, with no particular Claim on the Treasure also, IMO. (as 'punishment' for allowing Thorin his cousin be so down on his Luck as to have to take up Coal-Mining). And well, the Goblins, Bats and assorted Baddies were there for a Little old-fashioned Pillage & Plunder, with a soupcon of Revenge for Bolg mebbe !

    In the Appendices it says that Gandy had a worry that Sauron would team up with, but hadn't necessarily 'got' a plan. But it was a good job Smaug was Deaded, as the Elves in Lorien would have been sore-pressed indeed.

    I'm not going to speculate on possible PJ Motivations though..

    Posted 3 months ago #
33. Todd VanDelinder
    Member

    quite correct Stu... In the appendixes it says that there was a fear of that union between the necromancer and Smaug but it was a unknown fear there was no proof to suggest that it was even reality. I like to think it was just an unfounded fear of Gandalf's and nothing more. People are gonna read too much into it as is because they want to believe there is more to middle earth and want to see more unexplained stuff that was not mentioned in any Tolkien text what so ever. Too much wanting every little piece of dust between the cracks. where as I don't need all that just give me the hobbit story similar to the book with a few side track subplots that are smaller just to show Gandalf as long as we are forced to see the White Council stuff. Keep it in the same darker realistic based world as LOTR with all the nuances as the book other than stupid talking animals and it will be fine

    Posted 3 months ago #
34. julia mellor
    Member

    I like your point about Thranduil Stu, showing an Elven king as greedy and with more human frailties shall we say, will be a new experience for us the audience, as up to now Elves have been portrayed as shining perfect beings, like Galadriel, or just slightly snooty like Haldir. To see an elf being a bit shady will be odd to say the least. I wonder how they will handle it? on one hand they should play him like the book, on the other I dont know how far they will take greed as a reason for war, as would all the elves of Mirkwood wish to fight for such a mundane cause? it seems unlikely even if he is their king.

    Posted 3 months ago #
35. Joel Becker
    Member

    Thranduil's not so bad. I mean, he wasn't portrayed as a beacon or justice and... stuff... in this adventure, but don't forget that he willingly changed course and helped out Lake-town.

    Posted 3 months ago #
36. Marvin Chang
    Member

    When you look at how Thorin behaves when approached for treasure, I don't think the audience (or the elves, for that matter) will have to buy too deeply into the idea of greed as a motivation for war (although it is a tale as old as time); Thorin's insulting manner would be quite the propellant too. Of course Thorin behaves the way he does because of greed too... Really, when I think on it, a major message of the book itself is the danger of greed. The main antagonist is a dragon whose desire for treasure is purely based on greed for it without any desire to use it, the quest of Erebor is organised because of treasure and pride (Gandalf aids for his own reasons, but in this he is more of an opportunist than an instigator), and Thorin pays with his life for breaking an oath because Bilbo took his big jewel. I would agree with Stu when he says that Bard is one of the only honourable characters, but I would add Gandalf and our dear Bilbo as well. Bilbo exemplifies a character overcoming the dangers of greed as he leaves for home with only his Sting, his mithril shirt, and a couple chests of coins.

    Posted 3 months ago #
37. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup Joel...

    THAT was ALMOST an 'Agree' wasn't it ? LOL ! He HAD to fight because a ruddy great army of Goblins was bering down upon them ALL and had they kicked the Lakemens & Dwarves' Bums, would have automatically started on THEM , so he HAD to fight ! Marvin, I forgot Billbo as well as an Honourable Character. Gandy's STILL a manipulator though... No, Thranduil's still a Greedy Elf. And thorin didn't 'Deserve' to die.

    Posted 3 months ago #
38. Marvin Chang
    Member

    I'm by no means saying Thorin "deserved" his fate in our modern-day sense of deserving, but Tolkien's work was grown out of anglo-saxon, nordic, and germanic mythology and we can't overlook that fact. In the ancient world of these myths, an oath is binding and the penalty for breaking said oath is death. Poor, blind Hodr swore (along with everyone else except mistletoe) not to harm Baldr and, even though he was duped into it by Loki, suffers death as a consequence for killing him. This story, and others I (and I'm sure others) can list, demonstrate that an oath broken, even unintentionally, is a very serious matter in the ancient world.
    Also in myth, the penalty for selfish and dishonourable behaviour is often death, and Thorin did both. Regin's death at the hands of Sigurd is an example of this (and the previous point, for that matter, as Regin was Sigurd's foster father and had made a pledge to protect him).
    I unfortuneately don't have a time machine to go back to the dark ages, but if I did I suspect that people might view Thorin's end as tragic yet fitting due to his behaviour. Difficult for our modern minds to understand, I know, but I believe that this is why Tolkien wrote Thorin's death; not to add emotional height to the story but to show the full penalty for greedy, dishonourable behaviour.

    Posted 3 months ago #
39. julia mellor
    Member

    There are some big issues and moral lessons in the book, they are universal and any modern audience is going to understand the greed=war equation. Also broken oaths are just as relevant today what with the greed of big banks breaking faith with their clients. I understand that Thorins greed is his downfall, but i still dont understand how they are going to get round the Elves, a normally isolationist folk, who disappear into the darkness, even for some poor starving travellers, to have enough motivation for war. Thranduil may be greedy for jools, he may be insulted by some cheeky dwarves, but war? its stretching it a bit thin for my liking.

    Posted 3 months ago #
40. Marvin Chang
    Member

    I think you have to, as with my previous point about Thorin, bring it back to the time period and themes in which Tolkien set his work. The realm of the Mirkwood elves was not a democracy where the will of the leader can be questioned and protested; it was a totalitarian monarchy where the king's will is absolute and all in the realm have sworn oaths of fealty to the king. If the king goes to war, no matter how foolish the reason, you follow him. This idea of oaths of fealty also adds weight to the fact that Thorin's disrespecting of their sworn monarch could indeed propel the elves toward war as well.

    Posted 3 months ago #
41. julia mellor
    Member

    Good points, but you may understand the importance of oaths and fealty and I may, but the general public? I am not suggesting any patronizing pandering to the lowest common thingy, but I think this has to be explained in some simplified manner, as the Elves of Mirkwood in the book are on the one hand seen as easy going rustic party animals, more interested in feasting, singing and drinking strong wine, and also merchants, with economic interests, maybe its a threat to this economy that they may expand on, maybe they think trade may be threatened by the Dwarves, I dont know I am just chewing the fat here. But I always thought Elves were not very warlike unless really pushed by extreme events. Maybe I am wrong, feel free to let me know.

    Posted 3 months ago #
42. halfwise
    Member

    Still trying my best not to get any work done - you Brits already home from work sorely tempt us Yanks.

    I was just glancing through the end of the book last night. Bard and the Elves didn't exactly declare war, they declared a seige until their very reasonable demands were met (though Thorin was also reasonable to say he wouldn't give out a thing while the Elves were encamped outside). The reason they all had weapons was in case somebody else showed up first to claim it all for themselves, and if that someone was a bunch of orcs or other ruffians it would be morally acceptable to beat them off. The Elf king even declared at some point he was unwilling to mount an attack of many against few....though I think if Thorin hadn't gotten his dander up so much the Elves might have left to smooth things over. They stayed because they were offended, but never once mounted an initial attack.

    It was a classic case of reasonable people seeing their own viewpoint just enough more than others that they all rub each other the wrong way and things get nasty. A brilliant study in the role of diplomacy.

    Posted 3 months ago #
43. julia mellor
    Member

    sounds like us.....well someone had to say it....

    Posted 3 months ago #
44. Joel Becker
    Member

    Stuart, I agree that there was pretty much no way that the Elves weren't going to fight when the goblins came. Of the three races, the Elves hated the goblins the most and had the longest history with them, going all the way back to their strife with Morgoth. Plus, as Tolkien wrote, once the goblins (and wargs) showed up, the three races were all faced with a common enemy. It was kind of a no-brainer once that happened.

    Posted 3 months ago #
45. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup Joel...

    And I doubt the Goblins would have declined a free chance to Kick Elvish Butt, either !

    Posted 3 months ago #
46. lance
    Member

    Joel - I think the Dwarves would have had something to say about hating goblins the most after their long wars.

    Julia - going back to your comment about Elves not being warlike. The entire first age was about Elves killing each other and even getting banned from Valinor over Feanors obsession with his jools. There are definately plenty of examples of how even the mighty Eldar fell to basic things such as greed and jealousy.

    I rather think of the Elves as quite a snobby race who often see other races below themselves, with the exception of the divine. Thranduil's actions do not entirely surprise me and it wouldn't surprise me if PJ plays on some kind of insult that he wants pay back (or in his eyes justice) for.

    Posted 3 months ago #
47. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup Lance...

    Dead right ! My Jools Is My Jools, and I'll fight anyone who says Not !

    (Feanor !)

    Great Post and thoughts about Thranduil. After all, he never saw the Light, did he ?

    Posted 3 months ago #
48. julia mellor
    Member

    Thanks for correcting me Lance, I wasnt sure about elves being warlike or not.

    Posted 3 months ago #
49. lance
    Member

    Julia - can never tell whether you are being sarcastic or not. :/

    Wasn't correcting you at all, was just pointing out that some Elves have committed mass murder of their own kin for some bling. On the other hand, those that are considered wise are often shown to be very different and only go to war when needed.

    Posted 3 months ago #
50. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup...

    NEVER get between a Man and his Jools !

    Wise ? or Cowardly ? ALWAYS stand up for what you Believe in !

    Posted 3 months ago #
51. julia mellor
    Member

    Lance In this instance I was not being sarky LOL, I was genuinely thanking you, because I wasnt sure if I was talking rubbish or not about elves being warlike. I have no problems with being corrected when I am blathering. well most of the time hehe!

    Posted 3 months ago #
52. lance
    Member

    Julia, thats good then. Don't mind correcting people or having a row, however don't like people thinking that's what I have tried to do when I really haven't and they knew the answer all along!! Nobody likes a smarty pants!

    It's been a long time since I read the silmarillion so feel free to tell me if im being a plank at any point.... im sure you would anyway.

    Stu - what if you believe in sitting on the fence?

    Posted 3 months ago #
53. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup Lance...

    Feanor, as I used to post as before the Facebook login Crash, (has it been fixed yet ?) would NEVER have sat on the Fence. He'd have ploughed right through it and taken yer Teef out ! LOL !

    Posted 3 months ago #
54. julia mellor
    Member

    Lance, nobody likes a huffy female who flounces off the first sign of a fight either, dont worry, posting with you lads has knocked THAT out of me pretty quickly LOL.

    Posted 3 months ago #
55. Joel Becker
    Member

    Lance, of course the dwarves would have something to say about it, but they would be wrong. First, Tolkien explicitly says in The Hobbit that the Elves had the enmity with the orcs (or goblins, whatever) and they hated them the most. And as I said, that makes sense given that goblins (or orcs, whatever) were originally twisted, mangled, ruined Elves who became thus at the will of Morgoth and in mockery of Elves. Both Elves and Dwarves have fought the orcs since the First Age, that is true, but I think the Elves' history goes back a bit further than the Dwarves' and is more bitter in nature.

    As for Feanor - such greatness, such potential... such a fall. He was the epitome of Elvish skill and strength, but also the epitome of Elvish arrogance, vanity, greed, rage, etc.

    Posted 3 months ago #
56. lance
    Member

    Stu - Feanor wasn't mich of a fighter. He talked the talk but ended up deaded when he went for some fisticuffs. The top dude in that regard was our mate Fingolfin. Would like to see his duel with Morgoth on screen!!

    Julia - Thats the way everyone should be.... no point in being offended as that just gives the bullies what they want!

    Joel - Yeah, you're right. Think the Elves have managed to have rucks with just about everyone over the years. The orcs seems to be top of their list though.

    Posted 3 months ago #
57. Joel Becker
    Member

    Lance, good point about Fingolfin. Morgoth walked halt ever after. Nice! I would give Feanor his due, though. I mean, if I remember correctly, he charged ahead of everyone else, so it was just him against an army, and he gave better than he got, enduring many wounds before he died.

    Posted 3 months ago #
58. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup Lance...

    As joel says, Feanor died at the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, at the front on the way to Angband, but was Ambushed. Morgoth, the Coward, was trembling at Home in His Toilet and it took a wole PARTY of Balrogs to not-quite-kill him at the scene... More than worthy of Fingolfin, his half-brother.

    Posted 3 months ago #
59. pettytyrant
    Member

    Think the Elves have managed to have rucks with just about everyone over the years. The orcs seems to be top of their list though. - lance

    Well if its true Orcs are were originally captured elves twisted and tormented by evil sorcery that would probably give an extra layer of disgust and loathing and explain their desire to rid the world of them wherever possible.

    Julia I have never found you to be the turn and run sort, I'll give you huffy though- but then you are female. ;)

    Posted 3 months ago #
60. julia mellor
    Member

    hehe so true, I can huff and puff, but only for 5 minutes.

    Posted 3 months ago #

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