David Lynch = Dune = NOooooo! (though it looked and often felt great)
He made some choices as bad or worse than PJ. I agree, he can create ambience like few others, doesn't even need music to do it. But his genius is mixed with bizarro world. The The Voice being a hand-held amplifier?!! Baron Harkonnen with not a whiff of sophistication? Put him on LoTR and you'd be howling for his blood.
I'm sticking with Ang Lee, not a false note or misstep.
Ayup Jason...
I've never ever thought you were indeed being Petty, or personal. Just very, very passionate. I thought I was the only one as Passionate as I was (a long time ago) about LOTR. But you beat me there again, and know your stuff. I have to say that my real first Love is the Silmarillion though.
I wish there could have been a discussion group like this 25 years ago... And am glad there's one now, All there were then were those people who went to Entmoots, dressed up as Elves, and Invented Elvish words for the 'Telephone', which seemed pretty Stupid then...
But it IS hard to juggle critique for up to (ATMO until we GET The Silmarillion !) five films, four books and trying to sort out what the Author REALLY intended. Not to mention the Fan aspect of Tolkien for book and film too, But it seems we rub along pretty well. You ought to try hanging out with (Mainly) Middle-aged men who stick bits of Plastic together ! This is REAL Easy, believe you me.
Hope you don't mind my Ramble, Friend.
Halfwise I am a huge Dune fan and yeah Lynchs film does take one or two (!) liberites- but he still creates something I love to watch. At least if he's screwed up LotR's I'd prbably still have an amazing film of something to watch- and if he didnt screw it up think how amazing it could be- Lynch does Black Riders, or Barrow Wights, th epaths of the dead or the Mouth of Sauron- those moments in his hands could be quite something indeed.
Stu- I don't stick bits of plastic together much these days- I do stick bits of animation, film, and the like together however and I do spend time with middle aged men as liek myself all my friends are now sadly in that category!- but get yourself home from work (pull a sickie if you have to) and watch my edits! I have a sneaky feeling you might enjoy them. :)
If Lynch had made LOTR it would have been ludicrous, and a camp laughing stock. no offence.
sorry. I am tired and grumpy. and the crabbit will out.
Better out than in Julia!
And yes Lynch probably would make a mess of it- but camp? Really? You find his films camp?- but I'd still want to see the results!
For me Lynch is the greatest living film maker and Mulholland Drive one of the greatest pieces of filmmaking (followed by The Cook, the Thief his Wife and Her Lover by Peter Greenaway although otheriwse I am not a huge Greenaway fan).
To my shame I had forgotten about it. A lot of good Greenaway stuff like Drowning by Numbers (what a soundtrack too) got nearly lost from my memory when I tried to blot out Prosperos Books!
So maybe Greenaway does LotR's- that would be visually arresting I am sure.
Or how about Robert Hardy who directed the original Wickerman (my all time favourite film-and if anyone mentions the Nicholas Cage abomination remake I will climb out of your monitor and snap your neck!) we'd be guaranteed more of the songs at least.
Ayup Jason...
I forgot about DBN too, Guess what I'm gonna watch this Afternoon ! Mind you, seeing Helen Mirren Naked is ALWAYS a treat ! (Sorry Julia !)
Trouble is, do you think PG would feel constrained by the Material what with the Big Battle set pieces ? I think he would only give esoteric Hints of them... which wouldn't please a Mainstream Audience I feel. Although I think you'd get your more BBC Play-type version. Plus I don't know much about THAT Robert Hardy. Although I've seen the original Wicker Man. (and not the remake).
What about the Guy who wrote Buffy ? He'd make it a bit 'Rock 'n'Roll' I think... Joss... stick ?
Whedon? Mmm Firefly is amazing- Serenity less so- hate the entire last 20 minutes when it suddenly becomes Star Trek and the Captain goes off to save the day and have fisticuffs with the big baddie.
His stuff tends to stand on the quality of his characterisations and dialogue- not sure how he would be working with someone elses dialogue.
I think the dream team would be Michael Bay and Roland Emmerich. Imagine how big the explosion at Helm's Deep would have been... or how deep the conversation at the White Council could have turned out... or even how Aragorn could have gone from slaying 3 wraiths in FoTR to getting beaten up by an average orc in TT to having double flame swords in a 10 minute, fully choreographed battle with Sauron in RoTK with Manwe himself appearing straight after to place the crown on his head.
Jason - things could have been so much worse.
Or so much better. ;)
Not sure about that.... the only difference would be that we wouldn't be having this conversation as you would have done a lemming and exploded a long time ago (obviously lemming from the game, real ones dont explode in the same way).
er Dune camp? just a bit. I can virtually hear those Mentats lisping "How VERY Dare you!" with their lips covered in smeared lipstick, and Sting? in leather hot pants? come on! I loved the film though it was great, but I didnt like the inner monologue thing, surely they should let actors act, they were good enough, and it was very cold, ice cold emotionally, if there is one thing I love about PJ is the warmth and joy he can effortlessly conjure up. Agree about the Chinese directors, visual feasts, sweeping grandeur, colour palettes that take the breath away, elfin featured maidens, dramatic landscape, even Elronds robes were like Chinese emperors gowns. cool.
Well ok I give you Dune as being camp bit its not the norm, well mostly not the norm....(and besides camp or not it looks fabulous).
I like the style of the Chinese directors mentioned but I am less keen on the over stylising of the fight scenes. No point making the same mistakes as PJ but in a different way. Need a director who can do reality, who can do warfare in an earthy realistic fashion but still retain the scale and spectacle.
yes I agree, can you imagine Gandalf and Saruman flying at each other through a forest of bamboo?.
Ayup Jason...
You want Scale and Spectacles ! Off P.J. !!!
Go to the Back of the Class and write out 100 Lines ! No, make it A Thousand ! LOL. PS, Touche to Lance !
Ayup Julia... I can ! I can !
PS Everyone: I never liked Dune. Book or Film. Sting especially made me squirm with Embarrasment for some reason.
Stuart - don't attempt to read Dune immediately after reading Tolkein, the magisterial writing style isn't there. But compared to most other things it's pretty incredible.
Saruman chasing Gandalf through a bamboo forest!! Yes! Somebody has GOT to do it, would be as screamingly funny as MTV's version of the Council of Elrond (if you haven't seen it, imagine Jack Black as a Rivendell elf).
Yeah, maybe chinese style of fighting isn't what's wanted, but I think the overall effect would be closer to what's needed.
No! NO! Stu- the scale and spectacle of the books not of PJ's film. What did you think I had gone temporarily mad or something?!
Eastern film style could do it- just not the full on Crouching Tiger style- more Seven Samurai- now there's a film.
"Sting especially made me squirm with Embarrasment for some reason."- Stu
Its the leather hotpants, make me squirm too in sympathy.
Its a weird film Dune- it somehow manages to feel like the book whilst not really being very much like it. Although rumour and legend has it Lynch shot hours of stuff that has never been seen- supposedly the reason for the voice over sections of the film are to fill in the gaps for the stuff that the studio cut for time- I keep hoping for an extended directors cut or something but so far seen nothing.
Halfwise- I had Dune recommended to me- took me four goes to get past the first few chapters which just seemed like a lot fo gobbldeygook and a ton of silly names- once I got over that however it all started falling into place and the extrodinary depth behind them starts to become apparent and I devoured all the rest.
Ayup Jason...
There's many a slip... LOL. No, I think your position's as Clear as a VERY Clear thing. Glacier Clear Mint Clear in fact!
Y'know I'm gonna have to go to Amazon now and Buy Seven Samurai... One of the greatest Films EVER. I have it on Cassette, but why not on DVD. It IS one of the Greatest.
I didn't like Dune because of the strange Gimps in Polythene suits...the Harrkonens were they ? The best part of Dune are the worms, and the weird blueness of the eyes from the Spice. And being able to mouth a word of power and blow someones Head off... Still too weird though...
yes the worms were brilliant. and Francesca Annis the actress was amazingly beautiful.
Lynch got slated for them worms at the time- the butt of many a joke- mainly because the film went hugely overbudget- but its pretty clear the money didnt go on the worms- the sets are ginormous and opulaent as are the costumes.
And yeah, Julia she was stunning in it. Theres a lot of good actors in there, Patrick Stewart puts in a good turn too.
I dont think it was the worms themselves as much as the fear of them that was well done, the thought that they were underground just waiting to get you, like in the film Tremors with the lovely Kevin Bacon.
Lynch does do fear very, very well- any emotions in fact he can do very well, but the darker ones even better.
Love tremors-proper tribute to classic 50's b-movies like Them!(a personal favourite) less said about the Tremors sequals the better mind.
The parallels between the LoTR and Dune movies are striking: both are based on mind blowing books, both had sets and scenery that were perfect in every detail, both had directors that seemed like they were gonna get it right when viewing various sections, then went off the rails at odd times.
I think I got more adjusted to the blips in LoTR due to the extended edition, where the writers and directors get a chance to explain why they went off the rails where they did. I was able to accept Filmamir after that (not 'like'; 'accept'). Don't have the equivalent for Dune.
I would like to dig up your recut of LoTR Petty, I've seen good references to it. There's several cuts of Dune, one where the studio made it unwatchable.
If you want a watch of my edits Halfwise just pm on Forumshire I'll set it up.
I think the dvd version of Dune that I own is the longest available but rumours I've read in various sources say there was somewhere about 7 hours of footage shot- which seems incredible but might explain the huge amount it went over budget.
You would think in these days of specials, EE's and the like however that if such footage did exist the studio would want to cash in on it with a rerelease.
Sorry! I've been away for a while and want to return to the "Who would you like to see direct a new Lord of the Rings?" mini-topic a few posts back. Is that OK?
I think it's incredibly easy, considering the nature of the material, to turn to directors who have demonstrated an inclination towards fantasy in the past, who've exhibited something a little "faerie" about them. I can imagine a poll somewhere with Tim Burton, Terry Gilliam and, yep, Guillermo del Toro planted firmly near the top.
But, in my opinion, although they may seem appropriate choices, I don't believe they actually are. The character of LotR is so strong that it doesn't need a director with his own fantastical style. Quite the opposite, in fact. It needs a director who's a little more "neutral" and prepared to let the source material express itself free from his or her desire to impress their own "stamp" upon it.
And so I'd go for people like:
Peter Weir - who's shown great capability with spectacle (Gallipoli, Master and Commander) and yet also an impressive ear for mature, complex dialogue and character (Witness) and gorgeous photography (The Way Back)
Ridley Scott - whose production values are always jaw-dropping (Gladiator, Kingdom of Heaven)* and who's clearly demonstrated a high degree of competency in just about every genre going (Blade Runner, Black Hawk Down)
And whilst a wuxia version of LotR would certainly be interesting(!), I'd refrain from hiring Zhang Yimou (House of Flying Daggers, Hero) or John Woo (Red Cliff)** too; I'm not entirely certain a highly-choreographed, balletic Pelennor Fields would be appropriate!!
*No matter how God-awful the film - here's looking at you, Robin Hood!
**If you haven't seen it already, the full four-and-a-half hour Special Edition is the one to go for: quite incredible!
I agree about Terry Gilliam being a perfect fantasy film maker, but only in the 80s when he made Brazil. The latest ones have been dire, like Parnassus and the Grimm Fairy tale one with Heath Ledger, cant remember the name, so that says it all. I agree that Ridley Scott could have pulled it off, he has the grandeur and the visual flair. But my money is still on PJ, for me the atmosphere he created was perfection, the feel of the film, the intangible stuff that goes beyond the rational and the logical. Its the combination of all the parts, from the casting to the music and the sets, it all added up to a peculiar ambiance and feeling that for me felt just right.
I have to agree Jackson did a great job directing but to pick a NEW director I find that difficult. delToro does some good dark fantasy, Gilliam is alright ( Brothers Grimm was cheesy though) , someone like JJ Abrams would do great I am sure. But I really can't think of any others, well maybe Ridley Scott but that's it. I'd rather not see anything by directors like Lynch, or Burton, or Cuaron
I'm with you two! Jackson did a masterful job not least because of the actors, composer, designers, artists, technicians and artisans he chose to surround himself with.
Who else could have matched Weta's work? Or Shore's?
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