The Hobbit Movie Forum » Hobbit Movie

1. pettytyrant
   Member

   This topic was inspired by a comment Todd made about the Ring world elsewhere- it got me thinking and seemed worth its own topic.

   The Ring in the hands of PJ in LotR's was a partly concious, voiced evil thing- when worn it put its wearer into a crazy swirling world.
   In TH its a handy burgulars tool worn for extensive periods of time (compared to Frodo) and the entire conversation with Smaug.
   PJ can hardly give us the swirly world of LotR's or the conversation will be as hard to hear as it will be to see.So will PJ have a visual component to putting on the Ring-if not will that not seem odd to people who saw LotR's? In fact is there not an inherent problem in the audience knowing all about the Ring when none of the characters do and the characters remain ingnorant until the very end.

   Having made LotR's first how can PJ now present the Ring as effectively harmless (as far as the story of TH is concerned).
   He cant have anything obviously amiss about it beyond Bilbo not quite telling the truth about how he got it- and even then PJ has a fine line to tread in Gandalfs suspicions- if PJ overplays that it wil make it seems a bit odd it took Gandy over 60 years to work it out. And if he plays the Ring as is in TH its going to seem a bit odd to audiences who have only ever seen PJ's LotR's.
   And obviously there can be no connection between it and the Necromancer- no flashes of big eyeballs etc when Bilbo touches it or puts it on, otherwise Sauron would know the Ring had reappeared 60 years too soon.
   So how is PJ going to handle it?

   Posted 4 months ago #
2. stuart Carrier
   Member

   Ayup Jason...

   Interesting thought. I think we're going to see as Frodo did at the Prancing Pony, without the Eyes Inclusion, of course, as Sauron is allegedly somewhat 'Weaker'.

   But it's an Interesting and Salient point that you raise about Gandy. 60 plus 'Seventeen' Years to suss out that this IS indeed 'The One Ring'. especially after the not-Quite full tale and subsequent 'Owning-up' by Bilbo to the Company of escaping from Gollum. Either Gandy was Incredibly Busy, or Incredibly thick... Plus in the Trailer, the first words out of Bilbos (Ian Holms) mouth are 'I told you the truth, but not the FULL Tale Frodo' here it is... so there must have been some VERY subjective Deafness around Bag End... Maybe 'Longbottom Leaf' was actually Skunk Marawhana ? and caused some trouble all of its own ! LOL.

   Great Point Jason.

   Posted 4 months ago #
3. pettytyrant
   Member

   I'm going on memory here so if I get somthing wrong feel free to correct me, but in UT I think it is at the WC that takes place during TH time period, the subject of the Rings of Power is discussed and Saruman explains that the other Rings of Power all had a gem stone, but the One was plain and unadorned.
   In Shadows of the Past Gandalf tells Frodo that it was clear from the beginning the Ring Bilbo had was not one of the lesser Rings.
   So we have Gandalf, who either just before, or just after a WC which the Rings are discussed and described finds out Bilbo has found a plain unadorned magic Ring thats clearly a Great Ring. He knows where the 3 are. And the Wise seem to reckon they can account for the 7, and they know the 9 are still with their original owners.
   So even in Tolkien I have always found this aspect a problem- its a stretch as to why none of the Wise, but especially Gandalf never put 2 and 2 together.
   If PJ has the WC discuss the Rings, and then Bilbo finds a magic Ring and acts suspicously it will only make this problem seem even more acute on film, even more so than on the page. EVen worse if PJ tries to make the Ring in TH as ominous as he did in LotR's.

   Longbottom Leaf must be super-skunk!

   Posted 4 months ago #
4. julia mellor
   Member

   The way I see it is this, although it is not as powerful as with Frodo, as Sauron is not as powerful yet, it still has a malignant influence on the wearer albeit subtle. So when Bilbo finds it, it goes to work on him immediately, he becomes wary about people disovering it and taking it away from him, he becomes secretive and a bit "shady", he does not tell Gandalf the truth, he hides it, he uses it in stealth, he pretends to himself the truth and only much much later tells the truth. As to the visual effects I think at first Bilbo uses it in darkness, so perhaps it alows him to see better in the cave, I think the swirly effect will be a lot toned down, but as its an iconic visual it will be there but more subtle. I think Gandalf knew there was something fishy about Bilbo, and suspected something, but as his attention was distracted by other more pressing matters he probably pushed any niggles to the back of his mind. Gandalf knew that Bilbo had to go on the journey with the Dwarves as he had a premonition but he probably did not know the true significance until FOTR.

   Posted 4 months ago #
5. pettytyrant
   Member

   Even forgiving Gandalf his nearly 80 years of not noticing it still leaves the problem of presentation in the film. And not just visually. I really dont want to watch the Conversation with Smaug- that first time we Smaug the Magnificant in his lair through any sort of swirly special effect, even lessened from LotR's (and probably even less so in 3D).
   But also of not making the Ring to obviously evil, which its not at all in the book, yet sitting alongside the expectations of an audience who were pretty much force-fed in LotR's just how evil and bad and corrupting this Ring is. Can it no be easily demoted to handy tool for Bilbo to have-the role it plays in the book.

   Posted 4 months ago #
6. julia mellor
   Member

   At the risk of repeating myself I think the Ring will be a subtler influence on Bilbo making him secretive about it. It doesnt have to be the full on evil Ring we see in LOTR, we could just see a slightly uneasy wary effect it has on Bilbo. Also when we see Smaug for the first time it may not be from Bilbos perspective but as onlookers so we dont need the swirly effect to intrude. We could see Bilbo putting on the Ring at the mouth of the tunnel, cue swirly, then cut to Bilbo creeping stealthily towards Smaug.

   Posted 4 months ago #
7. pettytyrant
   Member

   And how do they shoot Bilbo's reaction shots during the conversation? Switching from swirly to non back and forth would be messy and annoying.

   Posted 4 months ago #
8. Todd VanDelinder
   Member

   WOW I inspired a thread!! LMAO who would have thought? LOL

   anyways I agree they should demote the "one ring" down to a simple tool. thats all it was in the hobbit story. I got blasted when I said that on other forums about how PJ has already made LOTR blah blah blah he needs continuity with the ring blah blah blah it should have the swirly ring world blah blah blah he really is Sauron blah blah blah...

   My take on it is Sauron was hiding in Mirkwood, he had no clue where the ring was, as far as he knew it was lost to somewhere unknown. He hadn't gained enough power to even look for it, he did'nt even really have the 9 working for him at this point they were scattered all over. it wasn't for many years after the events of the Hobbit that he did begin looking for the ring and the only reason he did find out who had the ring was because of Gollum who didn't leave the misty mountains for 10 years after Bilbo returned home. People want things the same but don't realize how badly it puts the ring out of context to even put the ring of the hobbit in the same league with the ring in LOTR. It was a tool nothing more the only thing they have in common at this point in time (TA 2941) is the physical essence or being of the ring.

   I really don't want to see Smaug thru a swirling misty world of PJ's ring world not even one little bit. I want to see all his dragony evilness crystal clear

   Posted 4 months ago #
9. stuart Carrier
   Member

   Ayup Todd...

   Ditto about Smaug.

   Mind you, as Juila alluded to, the ring attenuated itself (can't think of an easier word sorry) to the stature of the wearer, so how the ring influences (or uses) Bilbo should be different to how it influenced Frodo. Sort of made him a 'Liar', (?) until he gave it up. Sound right ?

   Posted 4 months ago #
10. Kendalf
    Member

    I'm pretty much in agreement with Julia (and bits n bobs of everyone else). In these two films, the Ring will have an influence on Bilbo but it will be very subtle. He'll be reluctant to reveal the truth about it, maybe a little grumpy about the odd thing here and there, maybe snap at one of the dwarves or even Gandalf...but they'll put it down to the stress and lack of home comforts. And crucially, so will Bilbo.

    Sorry, but unlike Todd, I _don't_ think it should be relegated to the status of a mere "tool". Yes, that would fit more in line with its role in the book but we have to remember that when Tolkien wrote the book he'd no idea what he was going to turn that innocent little magic Ring into later. To have it be nothing but helpful and benign would completely contradict what the established perception of the Ring is in audiences' minds and totally undermine Jackson's (excellent, in my book) work in the trilogy at establishing its personality, purpose and power.

    Yes, it should be substantially weaker; no, it should not be harmless.

    I agree with you both, though, petty and stuart: the tricky issues here are essentially of Tolkien's making, not Jackson's. With a much subtler influence on Bilbo (and a much subtler smeary effect in the "Ring world"), I think Jackson will be able to get round them...

    EDIT: Oh yes. I'm with everyone on Smaug, too. Weta will have invested too much in his design (and the conversation is too iconic) for the whole scene to be viewed and heard through the prism of the "Ring world". Unless Weta have Smaug look different through that prism, like the Nine...

    Posted 4 months ago #
11. pettytyrant
    Member

    "Yes, that would fit more in line with its role in the book but we have to remember that when Tolkien wrote the book he'd no idea what he was going to turn that innocent little magic Ring into later."
    Kendalf

    That is true- however after the publication of LotR's Tolkien went back and revised TH to bring it in line with LotR's-most notable the Riddles in the Dark section-but he saw no need to make the Ring any differnt otherwise, or to make it darker and more ominous than before outside of those few changes.

    Posted 4 months ago #
12. Todd VanDelinder
    Member

    Hmmmmm honestly I think with how weak Sauron aka the Necromancer was I really don't see there being any influence at that stage of Bilbo finding it. Granted had Bilbo had the ring for 500 years like Gollum did, I can see there being more so I understand it having long term effects on him. I am sure Gollum's physical transformation took a couple hundred years even though PJ never specified how long. I do like the way PJ showed Bilbo as being possessive with it after 60 years but if thats all it did over 60 years, one year isn't gonna do anything really... So I really still stick by my tool assessment of the ring. hopefully they dial the whole ring of Sauron thing WAY back

    Posted 4 months ago #
13. Kendalf
    Member

    petty - "but he saw no need to make the Ring any differnt otherwise, or to make it darker and more ominous than before outside of those few changes"

    Hmm, that's one interpretation. Another is that, perhaps, he _did_ see the need but just couldn't find the means (without altering the entire nature of the book) and so gave up. We all know he claimed he'd rather re-write the whole thing! ;-)

    Todd - "I do like the way PJ showed Bilbo as being possessive with it after 60 years but if thats all it did over 60 years, one year isn't gonna do anything really"

    Hmm, I think it did slightly more than that: the paranoia, the reclusiveness, the physical preservation, the deception, the absent-mindedness etc and then the "shadow" that fell across his face when he glimpsed it again in Rivendell. I'm with you, though. I hope they dial it way back, just not as far as you do!

    Posted 4 months ago #
14. Todd VanDelinder
    Member

    All those traits are what people who are possessive do, except maybe the absent mindedness, I think the look he gave to Frodo in Rivendell meant Bilbo was headed the same route as Gollum had he kept the ring. i agree he would have ended up the same as Gollum. but I just don't see the need to keep much consistency in the ring between the hobbit and LOTR, it is after all a totally different entity between the stories. Pj should let the audience draw its own conclusion as to why the ring is different. it might actually make people think more and read more Tolkien, than just falling in line and accepting PJ's version as the way it should be.

    Posted 4 months ago #
15. Kendalf
    Member

    "but I just don't see the need to keep much consistency...it is after all a totally different entity between the stories"

    But it's only different because one book was written twenty years before the other (three) and in that time Tolkien completely changed his mind about what the Ring was. This year's _film_, on the other hand, is being made ten years _after_ the other (three) so to have the Ring act in a completely benign manner would be utterly nonsensical and contradictory. Its character has been established. It _is_ the One Ring. The audience _knows_ this. And there therefore has to be some subtle acknowledgment of this fact that we, the audience, pick up on but the characters on screen don't.

    Can't argue with wanting more people to read the source material, though :-)

    Posted 4 months ago #
16. Todd VanDelinder
    Member

    but it is a totally weakend version of the one ring, The Necromancer was still severely weak at this point, I see it as the stronger he got the stronger the ring got "they are one the ring and the dark lord". So it would make sense with my logic of the rings power being greatly diminished. Tolkien did rewrite riddles in the dark to fit more in line with LOTR but felt the story was going in the wrong direction by continuing with the rewrite any further. So I think even with there being a gap in time between writing of the books it makes sense to keep it in line with the Hobbit but just explain about Sauron's power being weak and any of his assets would be worthless basically

    Posted 4 months ago #
17. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup Kendalf...

    I appreciate yours and Todds POV, but I still go with my Idea that the 'Strength' of the ring never changed, was still filled with the 'Same' Quota of Evilness, which NEVER waxed or waned, but as I said above, (when being worn) accentuated the worst aspects of the wearer, played to their Darker side, other than Sauron, who was its Master Unequivocally. Thus Bilbo was 'Elusive' and 'Secretive' and in 'Denial' about things, Frodo was a 'Coward', and Gollum, well it destroyed the poor Little sod totally. (he was a Murderer).

    I think the first few wearings wouldn't really have harmed the Hobbits too much, but when used as much as Gollum did, well, we know what happened then, don't we ?

    PS I think Gollum may have been a 'Special' case, as he Murdered to get the ring Initially, and he was half outcast by his family as it was, only his Grandmother tolerated him, TBH, so it really Hammered him more...

    Posted 4 months ago #
18. julia mellor
    Member

    I agree with Stu and Ken, I think the Ring subtly changed Bilbo from the moment he took "possession" of it, he became probably for the first time in his life a bit secretive and a bit of a fibber, something that probably annoyed and baffled him, as he was essentially an honest and down to earth hobbit. he only used it to hide from Lobelia, not murder like Gollum, Also when the Ring in LOTR was getting power over Frodo they were approaching Mordor with Sauron at full strength, when Bilbo found it the Necromancer was far far weaker with a temporary power base in Mirkwood. The Ring was not nor ever could be simply a simple tool, in the Hobbit it does not create mischief but it does alter the wearer for the worst, and like it tried to corrupt Boromir it could have awakened Thorins greed over the Arkenstone, but Hobbits are very resilient and would be even less affected than other people.

    As to the swirly world, I think they will have to get round that by Bilbo perhaps taking it off once in the tunnel and is well hidden from Smaugs eyes, as we have to see Smaug clearly. Perhaps the force of Smaugs personality is such that it made Bilbo want to step out and show himself, maybe Smaug can do a bit of parseltongue stuff like Saruman, you know make people do what he wants with his voice.

    Posted 4 months ago #
19. julia mellor
    Member

    ....the Trailer set up the whole issue of the Ring, it was in the last frame, the Ring in the forground with Gollum in the background, and Gandalf saying something like "and if you return you will never be the same", now that says to me that its going to be The Ring of LOTR that we find in TH and not some innocent little invisibility ring.

    Posted 4 months ago #
20. pettytyrant
    Member

    If that does turn out to be the case Julia I think Pj is making a rod for his own back.
    We might debate Kendalf exactly why Tolkien only changed certain things and not others in his revision and whether his abandoning of the project to bring TH more into line with LotR's was more about merging style than substance, especially regarding the 'ominousness' of the Ring in TH, but I think we can agree one of the reasons he abandoned it was the difficulty in doing it. I can't say I trust PJ to be able to do what Tolkien could not.

    Tolkien was clearly aware of the problem of making the Ring too obviously ominous in TH time period, given how long it takes Gandalf to work it out, I just hope PJ doesn't blow it by having to make the Ring more centre stage than the limited role it plays in the original.

    Posted 4 months ago #
21. Kendalf
    Member

    Todd - "I see it as the stronger he got the stronger the ring got"
    Same here; and if it's become strong enough to "betray" Gollum by leaving him (a la FotR prologue), then it's become strong enough to start exerting some tiny influence on its new owner(s) in order to weasel its way back to its Master whose power, let's not forget, has become strong enough to worry the White Council...

    Petty - "Tolkien was clearly aware of the problem of making the Ring too obviously ominous...I just hope PJ doesn't blow it"
    You're right, it's going to be tricky. But a little shiftiness here, a split-second loss of temper there would be enough to suggest an influence and yet would be minor enough for the characters on screen to dismiss as homesickness. We the audience, however, would know better...

    Julia - "the Trailer set up the whole issue of the Ring..."and if you return you will never be the same""
    Nail's head. Meet Julia's hammer.

    Posted 4 months ago #
22. pettytyrant
    Member

    But a little shiftiness here, a split-second loss of temper there would be enough to suggest an influence and yet would be minor enough for the characters on screen to dismiss as homesickness. -Kendalf

    You really see PJ leaving it at that? As something subtly done?

    Posted 4 months ago #
23. Kendalf
    Member

    Yes, to be perfectly honest, I do. To do much more would conflict with his own portrayal of Bilbo in FotR and make a nonsense out of Gandalf's lack of awareness of the ring's unique nature.

    What do you (seriously) see him doing?

    Posted 4 months ago #
24. Palo Stoney
    Member

    Ooh, it's a thorny issue again isn't it? I've an answer though! Just think of how at the start of a night out, all is clear & everyone's friendly, but by the end of the evening you've lost your grip on reality, you're getting into fights & what your perception of those around you is altered for fair or foul! (I obviously don't do this, at least anymore!)

    To be more serious, I think the ring has it's own intelligence of a sort, although maybe more of an animalistic, self-preservation, natural instinct.

    It wanted to be lost by Isildur, the slayer of it's master, but was quite happy to tag along with Gollum for hundreds of years. During this time Sauron obviously couldn't sense where it was at all, due to having little power at all, but the inherent evil within the ring was still sufficient to corrupt Gollum, by amplifying his own worst traits. Gollum was as good as it could be for the ring at that time - it was either him or a goblin & Gollum's cunning probably kept it in his sway.

    Possibly when the Necromancer was stirring, the ring "felt" it had to move on & conveniently a little hobbit came along & took the bait. Bilbo was quite self-depreciating & meek, plus Sauron was still not actively looking for it, meaning the ring had little obvious effect on him & had no impulse to be found by anyone else. The White Council forcing The Necromancer out of Mirkwood inadvertantly saved all their souls as it moved Sauron far away from the ring & kept his "eye" on self preservation & building his forces, so he couldn't be walked over again like he was by the White Council (think how close the ring would have been to Sauron if he'd remained unopposed in his tower. With the ring being used in Mirkwood whilst he remained in Dol Guldur then surely he would have known of its proximity?).

    Only much later when Sauron was revealed & the ring wanted to be found by his servants did the influence on the kindly hobbits start to effect them more. With the combination of Sauron & the ring looking for each other did its use start becoming more profound. This could be a reason for the swirly alternate reality of "ring vision". It's like the ring was starting to get drunk on Sauron's power & it now had it's beer goggles on!!!

    Posted 4 months ago #
25. Kendalf
    Member

    Palo - "Bilbo was quite self-depreciating & meek, plus Sauron was still not actively looking for it, meaning the ring had little obvious effect on him...Only much later when Sauron was revealed & the ring wanted to be found by his servants did the influence on the kindly hobbits start to effect them more."

    So you're in the "The ring shouldn't have any influence over Bilbo in these films" camp? Pah!

    Palo - "Possibly when the Necromancer was stirring, the ring "felt" it had to move on (from Gollum to Bilbo) ... (but) had no impulse to be found by anyone else"

    Hmm? So the Ring wanted to take the first, tentative steps towards being reunited with its master, but no more? It had been "awoken" but remained content in the hands of a hobbit? Hmm, possibly, but I just think that the move from Gollum to Bilbo, triggered by the nascent power of the Necromancer, is the start of the Ring's long, slow but deliberate quest to get back to its master and, as such, it would be doing everything in its (very limited at this point) power to do so...

    Posted 4 months ago #
26. pettytyrant
    Member

    "What do you (seriously) see him doing?"- Kendalf

    To be honest I am not sure, but judging him on LotR's and other films like King Kong subtle is not his preferred style, he likes hightened drama and spectacle. And the bit opf the trailer Julia pointed out gives me pause for concern. It gives the impression the Ring will indeed be with a capital R.

    Palo- I completely agree with your assessment of events from a Rings persepctive, as it were. Thats how it should be, but for the reasons I just gave in response to Kendalf I have grave worries over how it will be handled.
    In my very worst fears PJ will use the Ring as a connecting device between Bilbo and the dwarves and the Necromancer story line. Doing so in any fashion would of course be presposterous, and I dont seriously believe PJ would go there- but I dont 100% believe he wouldnt go there.

    Posted 4 months ago #
27. stuart Carrier
    Member

    Ayup All...

    The Fact that Bilbo found the ring is very Enigmatic isn't it ? As Palo speculates, had things come to such a pass, with Dol Guldur potentially under threat, that the ring had already 'Decided' to Leave Gollum, and was 'waiting' to be found by another Orc (Well, They DID riddle the Mountains of course, and were Gollums Favourite Snack And were Saurons chief Stormtroopers too !) so as to eventually fall into the Hands of the Necromancer across the way,so to speak. But, Sods Law Intervened, and it was found by Bilbo. which took it away from its Intended path for a while. And of course may have been sentient enuff to 'Reveal' Bilbo just at the wrong moment when he was trying to leave ASAP by the Back Door ! LOL. Good job he could jump and wasn't as fat as he could have been.

    One can only speculate what WOULD have happened IF an Orc had found it and accidentally slipped it onto its finger... Would Sauron have been able to track and find a wandering Innvisible Orc ?

    Posted 4 months ago #
28. julia mellor
    Member

    Well at the end of the day it is the One Ring isnt it? and I dont see a problem with it being made obvious as long as they dont try to shoehorn in any made up stuff about it, like it having an effect on Bilbo that is anything more than subtle, I dont know how they could add it to the hobbit story apart from making Bilbo invisible, or at the most make Thorin a bit greedier/prouder ala Boromir, other than that it plays no part in the Hobbit apart from setting off Gollums hatred of Baggins and his eventual search for the Ring. They could of course have in mind a bigger part for Gollum, which I hate the thought of, but he could have some kind of enlarged part, if you will pardon my French. I doubt if Serkiss will get his Oscar unless Gollum is around more.
    p.s Palo you dont go drinking with Bill Ferny do you? cos whether you had your BeerGoggles on or not he would always look foul. They are a bit odd at the Prancing Pony though.

    Posted 4 months ago #
29. Palo Stoney
    Member

    Hi Kendalf,

    Sorry, I wasn't very clear. What I meant was (which is obviously all guesswork & hopefully I'm vaguely accurate in my memory) is that when the ring first slipped away from Gollum it had first started picking up something from The Necromancer, even if it wasn't direct at the ring itself.

    The ring however didn't know where to go to next (just that it had to get out of the mountain), so it stuck with Bilbo whilst waiting for another signal/impulse/whatever. This didn't come along because of the actions of the White Council, which caused Sauron to up sticks & disappear again. Meanwhile, the ring was ultimately taken much further away, west over the mountains & then nothing happened. Sauron was rebuilding his armies & decking out his new fortress, making sure no-one would be able to get one over him like the White Council did previously. Only when he was ready would he reveal himself

    When Sauron was revealed, the ring wasn't able to influence itself over Frodo (yet), as he hadn't ever used the damn thing since it'd come into his safe keeping. However, by the time Frodo did use at The Prancing Pony, Sauron was actively looking for it with his eye that doesn't sleep, plus the 9 were abroad & very close. The ring then had its calling & the intensity of using it was much, much stronger than had previously been the case, allowing for the spacey-wacey, timey-wimey effect we've seen in LOTR.

    Like a baby animal it only had certain instincts to react to (imagine a baby bird in a nest - it keeps dead quiet & still so to stop from being attacked by predators, & only reacts when it's mother or father is nearby
    tweating. When mum or dad turn up with a worm it goes absolutely nuts!)

    Posted 4 months ago #
30. Kendalf
    Member

    Petty - "It gives the impression the Ring will indeed be with a capital R"
    Er, as Julia said, that's because it is!! And it would be utterly nonsensical of Jackson not to acknowledge the fact. A One Ring that _didn't_ have a slightly smeary "ring world" and _didn't_ make Bilbo just a little irascible would contradict everything that audiences know about it and that wouldn't sit well, either with them or the critics.

    Let's, for a moment, imagine we have a "burglar's tool only" One Ring to Rule Them All. How could Jackson _possibly_ explain its impotence without having somebody in the film make the link with the weakened state of the Necromancer? At least if there is some, minor influence on Bilbo (less than that on Frodo), audiences can make the link themselves.

    Posted 4 months ago #

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