It seems to me that there is something wrong with using a standard (english) mile for Tolkiens Maps. The result is a Middle Earth which is too small. Tolkien used a lot of History and Myth from other parts of Northern Europe. Could Tolkiens Mile actually be the 'Irish' mile which was used by the English in Ireland for centuries. One 'irish' mile is equal to 1.27 'english' miles. I think this arose because war spears were used to measure a mile and the spears in ireland was longer than those used in england. If this were the case Middle Earth would be 27% greater in size which would be an improvement as there are a number of references to distance which don't add up. Tolkien used to holiday in the West of Ireland near Galway and told friends that he got or imagined Middle Earth from his trips to the Burren. The Burren is a wild area of limestone mountains south of Galway. When the sea mists come in you can hardly see more than several meters. You can reference this on Newstalk.ie - Talking History - from a program about a year ago. A larger scale would make more sense and better allow for the many landscapes and climates in Middle Earth
The Hobbit Movie Forum » Hobbit Movie
a tolkien 'mile'
(7 posts)-
Posted 3 months ago #
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In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien discusses the linear measurements used in his work and he is clearly using the 5280-foot definition of "mile". Out of curiosity, though, what specific discrepancies do you think are created by the use of the shorter mile?
Posted 3 months ago # -
Right, I started out with the general idea the Map is to small. I was watching a TG4 (irish tv channel - very good sub-titled programs) documentary on Tea merchants who travel a round trip of 3,000 miles into and back from Tibet, over the course of a year. I was thinking that if they cover 3,000 miles at a snails pace with donkeys and carts, what took Bilbo so long on his trip. Thats where it started.
Anyway some of the conflicting distances are; in the Unfinished Tales (the disaster of the Gladden Fields, Note 6) it says the distance from Osgiliath to Bree, via Tharbad, was 392 leagues (1176 miles). If it is about 20 miles from Osgiliath to Minas Tirith and some 440 miles from Minas Tirith to the Fords of Isen that would make it over 700 miles from the Fords of Isen to Bree. Also Boromir claimed that he had travelled 1200 miles from Minas Tirith to Rivendale (Farewell to Lorien ; Book 1). I know this is not very scientific, but my 'gut' likes the idea that Middle Earth was a a bit bigger and the simple solution of the the 'irish' mile suits. But interestingly some early english miles were also longer as can be read to this 'clip' from Wikipedia below.
Irish mile
'The Irish mile was longer still.[13] In Elizabethan times, four Irish miles was often equated to five English, though whether the statute mile or the "old English" mile is unclear.[13] By the seventeenth century, it was 2,240 yards (6,720 feet, 1.27 statute miles, 2,048 metres).[4][22][23] Again, the difference arose from a different length of the rod in Ireland (usually called the perch locally): 21 feet as opposed to 16½ feet in England.[22][24]''The statute mile (1593) of Elizabeth I was not the only definition of the mile in Britain and Ireland. Perhaps the earliest tables of English linear measures, Arnold's Customs of London (c. 1500) indicates a mile consisted of 8 furlongs, each of 625 feet, for a total of 5000 feet (1666⅔ yards, 0.947 statute miles, 1524 metres):[12] this is the same definition of the mile in terms of feet as used by the Romans. The "old English" mile of medieval and early modern times appears to have measured about 1.3 statute miles (1.9 km).[13] The 17th century cartographer, Robert Morden, had multiple scales on his maps—for example, his map of Hampshire showed two different miles that had a ratio of 1 : 1.23[14] and his map of Dorset had three scales with a ratio of 1 : 1.23 : 1.41.[15] In both cases, the smallest mile appears to be the statute mile.
[edit]'Posted 3 months ago # -
Well, I believe the map at the beginning of LOTR was drawn by Christopher Tolkien, who admitted that it wasn't completely accurate, but he left it as is. I don't remember exactly where I read that or exactly what he said about it, but he did definitely say that the map wasn't quite right.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Is there not a section on this in UT- in which Tolkien explains how the measurements were derived based on things like the average stride of a Numenorean (pretty long) and how far they could march in a day etc.
In which case you wouldn't expect the distances to match exactly our own.Posted 3 months ago # -
pettytyrant, Your comment, ( UT- in which Tolkien explains how the measurements were derived based on things like the average stride of a Numenorean (pretty long) and how far they could march in a day etc.) gave me a smile, if it were 'hobbit' feet, they would be 'there and back again' in no time at all. However the idea of a Numenorean stride would make Middle earth larger which is where I am coming from.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Doesn't seem to be much contradiction in the posts above if we were to assume CT's argument that the map was "not quite right" is true.
Posted 3 months ago #
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