I just went and watched it again, and it really seems to me that Frodo doesn't push Gollum in. It looks like Frodo is going for Gollum to get the ring back, and they scuffle for a bit, and then they both fall (but Frodo catches the ledge).

Anyone else see this?

That's pretty much the way I saw it in the film too Beren. Frodo and Gollum are fighting over the ring and they both topple over the edge. This makes Frodo's (Ring Induced) actions morally neutral. I have to find my copy of LotR, but I think it lines up with how I remember the book's climax.

Gandalf's Beard

I commented on this a little on the Frodo Hero thread, but I'll elaborate here. While the "bad" made him attack Gollum for the ring, look at what happened to both combatants. Frodo held to the ledge, Gollum did not. Gollum held to the ring, and it destroyed him. Frodo, at the absolute last possilbe second imaginable, finally let it go. It took long enough, I know, but he had to finally let it go, or be destroyed.
And then, with the ring gone, hell all around him, he had a choice to make, let go and die, or try for a just a little longer. Sam made the choice obvious, with him yelling to hang on. And he did. Instantly with the ring gone, he held on still. The ring couldn't force him to try more like it did before (example: his burst of strength after an attack from Gollum). The decision to live at that point was all Frodo.
And when he thought he would surely die in the eruption of Mount Doom, he was still content. His life history, memories of the Shire, green grass, and etc were all back. His life was no longer open to the lidless eye of fire. He was free, and if he had to die, he would.
Frodo still chose to die (although he didn't), but he chose to die on his terms, not the ring's.
So in the end, I liked Jackson's treatment of the moment, and I felt that is was appropriate with the source material and the actions of desires of the different forces in that scene.

The book is continuous with the movie until right after gollum bites the ring off frodo's finger. IN the movie, Gollum dances around until frodo gets back up- but in the book, Gollum just... falls. He tumbles with a last cry of "precious!"

My mom, though admitedly(sp?) NOT a tolkien fan, thought the book ending was somewhat anticlimatic. I thought that at first, but after reading more on literary and plot devices, I realised Tolkien implemented a deus ex machina (" God of the Machine") Or a eucatastrohic event. Actually, I think Tolkien coined the term "eucatastrophe." Its a sudden turn of events at the climax that results in the hero's benefit.

Oh, I just consulted the trusty wikipedia and it said that a Deus ex Machina has no previous place or any cause of prediction in the story. A eucatastrphe, however, fits into the chain of events and is believable.

Anyway, Tolkien had very firm beliefs in faith and chance, and I think he was very scared of the results of past actions. It appears that small yet significant choices play a big role in the lotr. Was it Show that said that it was Frodo's PITY that ultimately made him succeed?

Wow, I rambled a lot. (LAWL, *sings Ramble On by led Zep*) But in conclusion, I like Tolkiens ending better. It just seems to be so singular and amazing and plain.. unexpected. I mean, I love jackson's, too, but its just a different interpretation of the story. Its one thats suited to a wider audience.

In either case, film or book, Gollum falls after struggling to obtain the ring. You are right on about the Eucatastrophe Hobbitz. I think when you look at what you, Show, and I are actually saying, we're pretty much on the same page .

GB

Well, a response to Hobbitz, Pity and Death, (Not going to explain Death, but that is a main aspect in the book), are major aspects of the book, and is indeed shown throughout the whole book. For example, Tolkien uses Gandalf in the Mines of Moria to express pity and its values.

"Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."

And also, you can obviously see that Frodo does many things as Bilbo does, and here is just one more example of that, Frodo having pity with Gollum, just as Bilbo did. Bilbo had many chances to just stab Gollum with Sting and be done with it! And yes, it probably

I was following your response with great interest LITD, but you seem to be missing a piece of your concluding paragraph .

GB

Huh. . . that is rather odd, I must have been in the middle of typing it and then the phone must have rang or something. Well, what I meant to say is that both Frodo's and Bilbo's pity obviously did have had a huge impact on the story, and if they had not been so pitiful of Gollum things would have fallen apart with the trip to Mordor. Thus, the all-knowing Gandalf , predicted it correctly.

"My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over."

LITD

Well, I remember watching a behind the scenes clip about this whole scene. Oringinally, Jackson had Frodo pushing gollum into the lava, but changed it to Frodo fighting for the ring. I personally thought it was a little dramatic, but still good. It worked. In the book, Frodo's finger gets bitten off, and then Gollum falls off the ledge by himself. Frodo still, wouldn't have thrown it in the fire had his finger not gotten bitten off, and I think thats what Jackson elaborated in the film. So i think, all in all, it was a good thing.