The Hobbit Movie Forum

[Bookworm]

I have not read all pages of this thread, so forgive me if someone already said this.

The problem with Peter Jackson's version of the destruction of the ring is that his screenwriters did not fully understand the story and what happened. In the book, as Sam and Frodo are struggling up Mt Doom, they are attacked by Gollum. Frodo finally throws Gollum down and, clutching the ring in his fist, he says (may not be an exact quote) "If you touch me again, you shall be cast yourself into the fire." That was a command that Frodo made upon the ring, even though he may not have realized it when he said it. He has commanded that Gollum fall into the fire if he touches Frodo again, and it is that command that causes Gollum to fall into the fire in the book.

[Gandalfs Beard]

Welcome to the forum Bookworm.

I don't think that the Ring would have recognized a command from Frodo. Indeed, the Ring had taken command of Frodo at that point. And it certainly wouldn't have allowed itself to be intentionally cast into the fires of Mt Doom. I think you are likely reading into the text something that isn't there.

But it's an interesting perspective worthy of discussion. We'll soon see what others think I'm sure. We thrive on friendly debate here .

GB

[Eldorion]

I was never actually clear if in the book it is Frodo or the Ring itself speaking to Gollum. The passage describes Frodo as "a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice...." (RotK, Mount Doom). That's not really conclusive one way or the other for me.

This has been said a number of times in this thread, but it was the divine intervention of Eru that pushed Gollum over the book, cf. Letter 182.

Also, welcome to the forum Bookworm!

[Bookworm]

I was never actually clear if in the book it is Frodo or the Ring itself speaking to Gollum. The passage describes Frodo as "a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice...." (RotK, Mount Doom). That's not really conclusive one way or the other for me.

This has been said a number of times in this thread, but it was the divine intervention of Eru that pushed Gollum over the book, cf. Letter 182.

Also, welcome to the forum Bookworm!

This quote from the book clearly shows that the power of the ring is at work here. The voice speaking, I think, must be Frodo's. At least, if the ring has any "will of its own" (which clearly it does) then it would have been far better off in Gollum's possession (who wanted to save it) than Frodo's (who wanted to destroy it). Of course, it is debatable whether or not the ring has any sense of what its holder may have in mind for it. It certainly is capable of discerning when its holder is of no further use for it (e.g. when it "abandoned" Gollum in favor of Bilbo in The Hobbit).

Still, I may be reading more into it than is really there.

This is one of the really great things about LOTR. There is a lot of depth to the story.

[Eldorion]

The voice speaking, I think, must be Frodo's.

Why must the voice be Frodo's? Last I checked hobbits' mouths are not on their chests.

[Bookworm]

The voice speaking, I think, must be Frodo's.

Why must the voice be Frodo's? Last I checked hobbits' mouths are not on their chests.

True! However, I have no reason to believe that the ring can speak aloud for itself. It if could, then when Gandalf threw it in the fire at Bag End, it would have yelled, "Ouch! Get me out of here".

[Gandalfs Beard]

I always assumed it was indeed Frodo speaking. But as he was completely under the Ring's power, his addiction-like Possessiveness made him say that and act in a manner he normally would not. The way Frodo phrased his comment was archaic (that's what you get when a Professor of Olde and Middle English writes a book ), but he basically was saying "if you try to take the Ring, I'm going to chuck you in the Flaming Lava Pit" .

GB

[pettytyrant101]

I think the Tolkien fans might be reading into this one too much- I find it hard to imagine a non-Tolkien fan would walk away from Jackson's Mt Doom scene thinking "God did that." What we have in Jacksons treatment of the scene owes far more to the rules of Hollywood that it does to Tolkien.
1. Any conflict taking place on a ledge between 2 characters over a great height, lava, water or pointy rocks must result in the hero being left dangling precariously from the ledge.
2. Any internal conflict a character may be undergoing must be acted out (hence the fight between Frodo and Gollum.)
3. Any moral decision made by the hero must also be acted out or voiced aloud. (Hence the dialogue between Sam and Frodo as Frodo dangles from the ledge).
These are cinema devices. This is purely about cinema drama not the original book-whilst myself and others here it seems would have been happy to see the scene play out as in the book the non-Tolkien viewer would most likely have gained little satisfaction from a quick dance and a slip of the foot.

[Eldorion]

I think the Tolkien fans might be reading into this one too much- I find it hard to imagine a non-Tolkien fan would walk away from Jackson's Mt Doom scene thinking "God did that."

I agree. While Jackson toned down the 'Frodo murdering Gollum' part of the scene from earlier versions, it still seemed clear from the film (to me, at least) that Gollum only fell because Frodo attacked him to try to get the Ring back. No God component present.

the non-Tolkien viewer would most likely have gained little satisfaction from a quick dance and a slip of the foot.

Perhaps, but then again people have been able to read the book and appreciate the ending for decades. I'm not sure what the difference between Tolkien viewers and non-Tolkien viewers is that would stop the 'non-Tolkien' ones from appreciating the original ending in cinematic form. The only difference I can think of is that the Tolkien ones have read the book, but that doesn't make them terribly different.

[pettytyrant101]

Thanks for the response Edorion, I wasn't clear as I should have been of my use of the terms Tolkien and non-Tolkien audience. I was thinking here in terms of how the company marketing the film is thinking. For some reason adapting something for what they consider to be the wider audience-nearly always more people will not have read a book being adapted than will have- seems to mean dumbing it down. I do not condone this practice but despise it, especially when its applied to Lord of the Rings. But it seems to be what has happened here- in the absence of any of the deeper resonances from the book in the film it is impossible to deliver the books ending. By the time the reader reaches Mount Doom the whole twisted history of the ring has, bit by bit being revealed, from its history to its dark character, the role of the Powers has been hinted strongly at- as the film fails to capture these aspects they are by necessity absent from the Mt Doom scene.