I'm afraid I don't agree GB. In addition to Beren's definition, I also found this one:



I don't really see how an author can prepare the reader for something which will come later if the later events are not even conceived of yet.

Well it's largely a semantic issue. I wasn't intending to imply intent... *what did I just say? *...on Tolkien's part . But his stories had a life of their own, and the Battle of 5 Armies definitely presages what will follow in LotR. I didn't really mean "Foreshadow" in it's narrowest sense as a Literary Device. I probably should have used the word "Presage" (as I just did ) as it more accurately means what I wanted to say.

GB

So you're saying that the story itself hinted at what was going to come, and not even Tolkien picked up on the "Presage" until he actually saw LOTR being written.

And please, GB, if you're going to use THAT C.S. Lewis quote, at least quote it in its entirety! "Battles are ugly affairs when women fight."

Exactly Beren . Many artists and authors have experienced this phenomenon. Are they writing the story, or is the story using them as a vessel to escape from he Imaginal Realm?

As to quoting Lewis, I just happen to think Battles are ugly affairs period (and I got the impression Tolkien thought so too). Though Medieval Battles and Kung Fu fights look awesome on-screen .

GB

of course they are ugly affairs, but one of my pet-peeves about the LWW film was that Father Christmas left out the part that says "when women fight." I also CRINGE every time I hear him say "but the hope that your majesties have brought has finally started to weaken the Witch's power." AGGH!! but I digress.

What can I say ? Adamson was just tweaking the dialogue to make it a little more acceptable for a broader modern audience. Oh well.

GB

Tolkien was not a professional writer, and had so many other things to occupy him that I think constant rewrites (without word processors!) weighed him down. So both the Hobbit and LoTR starts off like children's books, then migrate into the adult realm. I think if he had time he would have fixed the shifting tone.

But in the end I feel it worked in his favor. In both books LoTR the reader starts with the innocence of hobbits but slowly discovers a deeper, darker world. I think this unintended effect is part of what made them classics.

I basically agree with your assessment Halfwise . I have made a number of posts on various threads saying much the same thing.

GB

Much as I try, I don't see much difference in the tone from start to end. Thorin, as an example, is Thorin throughout. Maybe you guys were a little confused by the fact there is not an applicable song during the Battle of Five Armies. As I am helpful, I'll help by giving you one:

ELVES:
Here come the goblins under a cloud,
Made up of bats, shouting all loud!
Tra la lally we'll fight in the valley,
This arvo ha ha.

DWARVES:
Far over the Misty Mountains cold,
Beyond lakes with fountains bold,
We must fight away until end of day,
To keep our pale reflective gold!

GOBLINS:
Snap! and Snarl!
Go get 'em Karl!
Chop 'em and mop 'em,
Kick 'em and mock 'em,
Then take take back their gold
To Goblin Town,
Yippee yi yey!

WOLVES:
Growl, growl, growly,
Growly, growl, growl,
Snappity snappity,
Bark, bark, bark...!

....Now, if the above was inserted somewhere in the battle, you'd realize the tone hardly changes (if indeed, it changes at all).

Wise Odo

Well Yes!!! IF one added those delightfully charming ditties I could quite see your point .

However; without those "Lost" Epic Ballads , that entire segment of the book, post Smaug, has a markedly more serious (and I dare say more "grown-up") tone than anything previous. Having just re-read large swathes of the Hobbit, and the denouement in particular, whilst researching for my Fan Fic; I feel quite confident in characterizing it thusly .

GB