The Hobbit Movie Forum

[Tinuviel]

In LOTR, I understand why Arwen can't leave middle earth, because she's half-elven, and was part of her fate... But Luthien Tinuviel was elven, so why couldn't she leave? And even if she gave up her immortality, then how could hobbits and (possibly) a dwarf even go into the west?

[Odo Banks]

Tinuviel,

Bilbo, Frodo and Sam left Middle Earth as a reward (?) for being Ring Bearers, didn't they?

Like you, I don't know about Luthien's situation. Was it ever explained in the Appendixes or in the Silmarillion?

I'm also curious to know why Elrond and Elros had to choose between mortality and immortality. (If I had been Elros I would have picked immortality, I know that much!) Also, why did Aragorn and Arwen's son Eldarion not get a choice?

Odo

[Eldorion]

In LOTR, I understand why Arwen can't leave middle earth, because she's half-elven, and was part of her fate...

Actually she could have left, but she chose to remain in Middle-earth and eventually die because of Aragorn.

But Luthien Tinuviel was elven, so why couldn't she leave?

The path to the Undying Lands wasn't open to the Eldar during Luthien's life, not that she had any real reason to go (her spirit was able to traverse the distance though independent of her body). Later when she chose to become mortal she forfeited her Elvishness and also died before the offer to come to the Undying Lands was reissued at the end of the First Age.

And even if she gave up her immortality, then how could hobbits and (possibly) a dwarf even go into the west?

Bilbo, Frodo, and (presumably) Sam and Gimli were very special cases and granted exceptions to the rule that non-Elves couldn't go to the Undying Lands (sort of like Luthien was a special case and received the Gift of Death). However, they did not live forever there.

Hope this helps.

[Eldorion]

I'm also curious to know why Elrond and Elros had to choose between mortality and immortality. (If I had been Elros I would have picked immortality, I know that much!)

They couldn't very well be mortal and immortal at the same time, could they? The Valar decided for some reason - who knows what their thought process was - that since Elrond and Elros had mixed heritage (Maia, Elvish, and Mannish) they would be allowed to "choose their destiny" so to speak. This choice was not granted to anyone else after Elrond and Elros except Elrond's children (why they got a choice but Elros' didn't is not explained to my knowledge).

Also, why did Aragorn and Arwen's son Eldarion not get a choice?

Arwen had for all intents and purposes become a mortal, and Aragorn had about 6000 years of mortal heritage on his side. Eldarion simply wasn't covered by the Valar's decree.

[Odo Banks]

Eldorion,

I thought I read somewhere that Ring Bearers might have been allowed to sail, that's why Sam might have been able to go. I'm not sure what special grace Gimli would have had though.

As to being both mortal and immortal at the same time, I think they can. Elves can have 'mortality' thrust upon them - and so inherently they enjoy both the "mortal" and the "immortal" state. Talk about lucky. (I'm making an aside here to Mortality being God's Gift to Man. Some Gift!) As to your witty remark: "Oh you!"

Are you sure Arwen had a choice? Wasn't she "fated" to die when she married Aragorn? Could you quote the passage that refers to her making a Choice. I thought her Choice was: marry Aragorn and you die. Not: you can marry Aragorn, but when he dies you can sail if you still want to. I'm really unclear about this.

Odo

[Gandalfs Beard]

I think that's what Eldorion meant by referring to Arwen's choice Odo. Arwen chose to remain in Middle Earth with Aragorn, therefore she chose a mortal life.

Eldorion is right on the mark in his responses. I'd ruminate a bit further, but I'm getting an email alert.

GB

[Odo Banks]

I don't know. I can't help thinking there's something a bit fuzzy about this Arwen business.

Eldorion: "Arwen had for all intents and purposes become a mortal..." Please explain that. I need more convincing.

Odo

[Eldorion]

I'm not sure what special grace Gimli would have had though.

I can't check my book at the moment, but I believe the end of Appendix A mentions it was because of his friendship with Legolas and his puppy-love (er ... reverance ) for Galadriel that allowed him to go. Perhaps the Valar were simply feeling generous.

As to being both mortal and immortal at the same time, I think they can. Elves can have 'mortality' thrust upon them - and so inherently they enjoy both the "mortal" and the "immortal" state. Talk about lucky.

The only instance I can recall of an elf loosing immortality is Luthien (Arwen doesn't count since she had a choice as the daughter of Elrond Half-Elven) and Luthien only got it by special decision of the Valar (probably after consultation with Eru). She is hardly representative of Elves in general though anymore than Tuor (who did not die) is representative of Men in general.

(I'm making an aside here to Mortality being God's Gift to Man. Some Gift!)

It was intended as such, and while as Men ourselves (well, in my case a human but not necessarily a man per se ) we might not appreciate it as such, the Elves were somewhat jealous. They are bound to the world and very well might not outlast it (for the world is not eternal). The uncertainty of death though is not something I particularly care for, though. Before this becomes a real world philosophy discussion, I'll just say that I can sympathize with the Numenoreans.

Are you sure Arwen had a choice? Wasn't she "fated" to die when she married Aragorn? Could you quote the passage that refers to her making a Choice. I thought her Choice was: marry Aragorn and you die. Not: you can marry Aragorn, but when he dies you can sail if you still want to. I'm really unclear about this.

Her choice was to either sail Oversea or stay in Middle-earth and die, and her decision to stay behind was because of Aragorn. Had she stayed behind for some other reason though she still would have died. I can't quote the exact passage unfortunately, but there is a description of the choice in The Silmarillion I believe, in either the final chapter or one of the two appended texts.

"Arwen had for all intents and purposes become a mortal..." Please explain that.

Arwen was de facto elf for most of her life, but at some point after her decision to remain in Middle-earth she became mortal. At what point her innate longevity actually left her (her decision to stay, when Elrond left but she stayed, when Aragorn died, or even the moment at which she herself died) I do not know. In any case, after her decision to remain the question of her dying was no longer one of if, but when.

I hope this is somewhat clearer.

[Odo Banks]

Eldorion,

GIMLI:-
I remember the mention of Galadriel possibly putting in a good word for Gimli - and I must say I liked the way T made out he did not know what had happened. It almost seemed that T himself was only aware of a rumour to that effect. Wonderful!

LUTHIEN AND ARWEN:-
Yes, I seem to remember she choose mortality. Arwen I thought did too. It seems to me it was the price of marrying mortals. Could Arwen have still chosen immortality and still married Aragorn? I don't know that any text supports that.

ERU's GIFT TO MAN:-
Nah! Can't come at it being a GIFT. Most people do have uncertainty about death and would probably like the opportunity at least to live much longer than our mortal span allows. If we had the Elvish Gift of immortalility - we could always choose to give up our Spirit at the time of our own choosing - like Arwen apparently did (before her chosen 'mortality' kicked in!)

NUMENOREANS:-
Yes, I sympathize too. Elros certainly made a decision that his descendants disagreed with! Kind of selfish if you look at it in a certain light, I think.

ARWEN AND ARAGORN:-
I agree with you. Arwen stayed because of Aragorn and thereby chose mortality. Her immortality was rescinded. She chose the time of her own demise, but she would have died anyway. Just like Luthien.

MORTALITY:-
I think we actually agree about Arwen's mortality. We just seem to disagree about the timing. When did she become mortal? I think it was the minute she married Aragorn (or maybe when she made the 'final' decision to stay behind in Middle Earth?) You seem to think it was at some indeterminate time later?

Odo

[Eldorion]

Could Arwen have still chosen immortality and still married Aragorn?

Well she could have but they would have been separated from each other forever after death, which I would imagine kind of sucks for a husband and wife.

If we had the Elvish Gift of immortalility - we could always choose to give up our Spirit at the time of our own choosing - like Arwen apparently did (before her chosen 'mortality' kicked in!)

Arwen was a very special case and by no means representative of elves in general. She had the choice to give up her immortality because of her father, for all other Elves (except Luthien who got a divine decree in her favor) had no such option: they were stuck, immortal, in Arda forever. That's why they were jealous of humans.

Kind of selfish if you look at it in a certain light, I think.

I'm sure the later Numenorean Kings looked on it that way, though to be fair I don't know if Elros was aware that he was depriving his descendants of a choice.

When did she become mortal? I think it was the minute she married Aragorn (or maybe when she made the 'final' decision to stay behind in Middle Earth?) You seem to think it was at some indeterminate time later?

I don't know when it was, like I said in my last post. Once she made her choice it was inevitable though.