I concur Odo. I don't quite remember where I read it, but I am sure Tolkien remarked that Hobbits had a kind of "natural magic" related to Nature and Growing Things. And though Elves could also be said to have Natural Magic, it was on a far higher level than that of Hobbits.

And though Gandalf was a Wizard, again, the focus was on Natural Magic. Which, from what I recall, Tolkien saw as a different order of magic altogether from the Manipulative Magic practiced as Sorcery (such as by Saruman and Sauron in particular). In other words, Natural Magic is that which flows from the natural order, the Source of Life; whereas Sorcery was a Mechanical attempt to manipulate and distort the natural order (in Tolkien's world anyway).

Otherwise, I quite agree with Eldorion's excellent exegesis on the textual analysis of Tolkien's work .

GB

Aww, thanks guys.

I'll think over the magic question a bit and hopefully have some more on that later when I'm less tired.

I've thought a bit more about magic and I think it's largely a matter of semantics. I wouldn't call it magic and I doubt a hobbit would either, but we know that there are "magical" things (to us) that are not seen as magic to the practitioners (the Mirror of Galadriel is what I'm thinking of here). So if you want to call Hobbits' affinity with the earth magic, that would be possible from a human standpoint though it's not necessarily supernatural.

I'm rambling now I think. My main point is that while I'm not going to call it magic, I think we're all on the same page here.

Eldorion,

I only just used the term "on the same page" a minute ago. Spooky! Anyway, "magic" is not some concrete thing. I think of Jesus in the Gospels who sometimes had a similar, dare I say, 'quality'. (No, I'm not a Christian - not that there's anything wrong with that!) What I mean is, just when you think you've laid a finger on Who or What Jesus is, he mysteriously vanishes. Read the Gospels, friends, and see what I mean. Magic's like that. It can't be nailed down. You can only intuit its presence. I think T knew that. Of course, T knew that!

Odo

NB: The White Council will wreck The Hobbit Movie!

NB (2): Hey! Why not rename it the 'Dark Council' for film making purposes? Fits better with the more somber tone of LOTR "The Prequel."

I agree odo, you really can't pin down magic, simply because the freedom of it is what makes it so magical: everyone can have it. That's why people enjoy it so much. And that's why people (like myself) can't bear to think about a world without it in some why shape or form. Tolkein knew that, and that's why everyone loves the stories so much! Magic for everyone! I can't help but think (and shudder) at the thought of a world without magic, or worse, LOTR!

Frances Hodgsen Burnett wrote several books including A Little Princess, and The Secret Garden. She wrote Fairy Stories without fairies. Magical books without any obvious magic.

She dabbled in Theosophy and Spiritualism, yet her stories mirrored precisely the sense of Magic that Tolkien, the Catholic, was on about when he talked about Natural Magic. And these notions about Natural Magic are even mirrored in some strains of modern Wicca, and Animist Paganism. One could say that they were all on the same page .

GB

There I was, all pumped up and snorting over the Anti-White Council Crusade - and now suddenly I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy and thinking about all the magic is in the world... sigh....

I think I might have that pint Lester Cat mentioned...

Odo

Well look at that, we're all on the same page, and we will be until we get enough posts to move us over to a new one.

I have to admit that I'm a bit of a skeptic about magic in the real world if one considers it as a supernatural phenomenon, but I certainly like reading about magic and imagining it. And not just with LOTR, but a lot of fantasy and sci-fi (including my beloved Star Wars ). Call it escapist if you like, but I think that being able to escape from the real world at times is quite refreshing and healthy.

EDIT: I'll pass on the pint though.

I don't think it a bad thing at all to escape to a fantasy world - so long as when you get there you believe in everything - absolutely everything - including magic, Eldorion! Call me old fashioned!

Odo

Magic's kept me going since I was 8. We all need to believe in it sometimes, just to keep us going in life! I cringe at the thought of a world without it, or worse, without LOTR (*shudder *)How different the world would be...