Personally if it's a question of where one places oneself, I prefer to speak from "within" the conceit than from "without" it. Taking this positioning as my starting point, I'm troubled by your nods, winks, hints and nudges, GB. Am I right to think you choose to look from "outside" and make yourself thereby some kind of unbeliever!

Eldorion, I'm pleased to see you're not totally comfortable with the prospect that any 'intermingling' went on. Maybe GB's right about the genetic argument, but I have a 'philosophic' difficulty with Hobbits having too much to do with Man. You see, I still believe that Hobbits have a simple 'everyday' kind of Magic, perhaps a prosaic kind of Magic if I have understood T rightly, but a Magic nonetheless, which contamination with any Mannish bloodline could only diminish. Hey! Hobbits might be able to intermingle with us, but what a horrible thought if they have!

Anyway, away with you GB, what with your Modern Zoological Thinking and your views from 'outside' conceit!

Odo

Actually Odo, my trouble is that I am all too much of a believer when it comes to Magic, Middle Earth and Narnia (I have argued passionately for the Physical Reality of such places in our Multi-verse on other forums). But I am a Gemini , therefore I have a little part of me that Transcends all "belief" and observes from the "outside" so to speak. Very Post-Modern of me .

And it is my sense that the Hobbits have a bit of Magic in them (as you suggest also) that urges me to "believe" that Hobbits and Elves (and yes, even Dwarfs) intermingled with Humans.

I don't want Magic to be dead. I want Fairies and Unicorns to be real. I want Magic to live on in Me and the World. I don't think it diminishes Magic for it to be spread around a bit. If anything I think the opposite is true. The More Magic in our blood the better. If we could only tap into it, recognize it, we could revitalize the world and return a sense of the Immortality and Joy of Life to our existence.

Just imagine if we all discovered we were part Elf or part Hobbit tomorrow . I think the World would be a better place for it.

GB

Dear old Romantic GB

I knew I'd get you back! In my view Reality does not exist, only Fantasy does (at least on this forum!)

I can't feel satisfied, though, with Man absorbing Hobbit (or Elvish) Magic, no matter by what process. I remember my first reading of The Hobbit, and though, of course, I identified with Bilbo and saw parallels between me and him - we both had two legs and arms two and one head, and were both therefore "people" for a start! - it was his "otherness" that appealed most. I know his "otherness" might be almost indiscernible, but nonetheless it was just the right amount.

Funny, now I think of it, this is probably the core reason I have little time for most modern fantasy. CS and T had a natural way of talking about, dare I say, 'unnatural' things (things of Faerie, I mean!) Other fantasies try too hard to impress, I feel, with their "imagination." I think both CS and T 'believed' their stories were true and just "passed on" what they had learned. History, lad, that's what I mean! Truly what happened....!

I'm rambling...

Your fault, GB... One minute the Scientist, the next, a flagrant Romanticist! Is that what it's like to be a Gemini?

If so, I'll stay Sagitarian! It's easier... simpler...more direct somehow... straight shooting... I'm rambling again...

Odo

Yes, being a Gemini is my burden to bear . It frustrates some of my close friends no end: "I agree with everything you said, BUT..." .

I'm not sure how to explain it, but it all works out in my head. It's all Many but it's One. Science and Romanticism are two sides of the same coin for me. And to me the concepts of "Supernatural" or "the Other" have little meaning.

As far as I'm concerned, If something occurs, or exists, no matter how miraculous, it is natural by definition. And I do not see "otherness" as separate from my "Self". My skin isn't simply a border between me and everything else, It is what connects me with everything, or everyone, else. And when I experience the beauty of a culture or being apparently "alien" to myself, I realize that it appeals because it resonates with my inner "alien". Very Hindu, Very Pagan, and also the point modern physics and modern biology/ecology has brought us too. It's a full circle.

Science and Romanticism are finally cleaving together again. The separation of Matter from Spirit in our Western Ways, both in religion and science truly ended with Einstein, after centuries of Alchemists attempting to bridge the gap. Ecology shows us how interconnected and holistic everything is ultimately. Quantum Physics demonstrates, that if we can conceive it, it must exist--if not in our own little corner of the Multi-verse--at least somewhere in the Multi-verse.

And if we could strip away that Illusion of the Skin Encased Ego, which is very Real on one level, we could discover our Immortal Elven Self which is just as Real (if not more-so) on another level.

So it's all Real, or it's all an Illusion--but even that Dichotomy is in itself an Illusion which must be stripped away to see the Imaginal Reality for what it truly is. Okay, maybe I've completely gone off the deep end, but I think it's where we are all trying to get too in the "end".

GB

Perhaps you have dived into the deep end, GB, but full steam ahead, I say. I might be just a shallow-end paddler, but that doesn't mean I don't like to hear from the depths, even if I'm far too timid a Hobbit to swim there too often myself (they can be dangerous waters!)

Odo

NB And I still don't think Man ever mated with Hobbits, so there!

No problem Odo, I'll be happy enough with a little Elven blood .

GB

This is backtracking a bit, but I wanted to return to Odo's point about perspective when considering the story. My personal preference is to consider the texts as a historical record - translated by Tolkien - in the same way as Tolkien did in his original "conceit". Therefore, when I am in this frame of mind, the story is not actually one written by Tolkien but one recorded by Hobbits and supplemented with Elvish and Mannish lore many thousands of years ago, eventually collected into a single work later translated and edited by Tolkien.

In this view there is also no distinction between the real world and the imaginary world of Arda. I pretend that we really are living in a latter-day Arda and that The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, etc. provide our best knowledge of the "true" history of the world. This involves the willing temporary suspension of certain real-world beliefs about history and science. Of course, I don't actually think that LOTR is a historical record, but it's a supposition made for the sake of analysis.

Once in this mindset I approach the text as generally accurate but not inerrant. There is a possibility of inconsistency or omission on the part of the recorders. I am not, however, like the people who wrote The Black Book of Arda in which Melkor is actually the hero of the story who has just been given a bad name by his enemies. I still accept the story told as more or less accurate, but I don't expect the recorders to have been omniscient.

Moving back to the original discussion of hobbits: we can assume from the Prologue (which is written in a style that is clearly a historian - Tolkien - commenting on the older texts) that Tolkien had some familiarity with hobbit practices well after the end of the Third Age. Therefore, it would stand to reason that he came into contact with some hobbits; perhaps that was how he obtained a copy of the Red Book to translate and/or how he learned Westron (Common). I think the comments made in the Prologue give evidence more to the separation idea than the interbreeding one.

Wow, this has somehow become a short treatise on textual analysis of Tolkien's writings.

The Prologue (I seem to be referring to this a lot lately ) states that "Hobbits have never, in fact, studied magic of any kind, and their elusiveness is due solely to a professional skill that heredity and practice, and a close friendship with the earth, have rendered inimitable by bigger and clumsier races."

Well said Eldorion!

Odo

Oh Eldorion! I'm not sure, but I think T does refer to some kind of everyday magic in TH. And I did say "prosaic", afterall! The tiniest bit of "natural" magic, perhaps - yet still magic.

Odo

NB I managed to miss your second post earlier.