[Hey everyone- first post; great forum.] I remember that the goblins from the original Hobbit movie scared the bejeezus out of me as a little kid. But I always loved that sense of darkness, in movie and book, and how it contrasted with the camaraderie between burglar, wizard and dwarves; the feasting and merriment in Hobbiton, Rivendell, and Laketown, etc. I could picture the scenes of the Misty Mountains as having similar rapport as was seen in the Uruk-Hai scenes from Two Towers, slightly humorous but with a distinct, edgy, and dark character to it.

Also, and please correct me if my recollection is lacking, but I remember reading in either The Hobbit or LOTR that the fact that the Goblin-king was killed by Gandalf invisibly wielding Orcrist in combination with their defeat at the Battle of Five Armies, caused a great scattering and weakening of all of the Misty Mountain goblins. This, in turn, is why I had always envisioned that the orcs of Moria, being beneath the Misty Mountains, appeared similarly leaderless and scattered.

Overall, in terms of director's vision, The Hobbit, I think is infinitely more filmable, because it so much more linear and direct of a storyline. The devil will be in the details as many seem to allude to and their thankful transition to a two part "all Hobbit" movie will enable many more of those details to be fleshed out.

Hmmm... I think that The Hobbit should be more of a-well, not exactly "children's" tale, but more innocent than the lord of the rings. After all, doom isn't certain. The dwarves and hobbit are not on a journey of utmost importance and insurmountable odds. I'm not to take away from the sense of danger in The Hobbit; there's danger enough. But it just seems like a lighter story than LotR; after all, it was written as a children's book. I'm just afraid that they will make it too dark. Peter Jackson did that with LotR, I think. For example, look at the Paths of the Dead scene. What's with the millions of skulls and skeletons, and the King of the Dead defying and challenging Aragorn? That scene was one of my least favorite scenes. I hope the Hobbit isn't made too gory.

Personally, I loved the Path of the Dead scene--really creepy . But as The Hobbit is much lighter in tone, I really think that focussing on the quest for Smaug should be the intent of the first film. Then the second film can handle the darker material.

GB

I quite agree GB! My question is: How are they going to run the WC/Gandalf WITH the rest of the storyline??? I'm not too familiar with how those timelines actually go together so i don't really know how they would do that any one have any expertise in that area?? i'll have to do more research

I wrote this on the two part Hobbit movie thread:

I concur Eldorion. I think the first film is still likely to end with the death of Smaug. The humour and lightheartedness can then be maintained throughout it. The darker, more adult material will then be consigned to the second Hobbit film.

Then the second film will probably open with the immediate aftermath. Someone will wonder aloud "what's happening with Gandalf." Then it will cut to a flashback revealing Gandalf, the White Council etc. The first such scene would probably be a continuation of a brief set-up scene in the first film so people will understand it's a flashback (sort of how the battle with the Balrog is handled in LOTR).

I suspect this will take up the first third of film 2, then there will be cuts back to Bilbo and the Dwarves as the time-frames converge somewhere in the middle of the film. This should then lead to Gandalf meeting up with the crew just before the end the second third of the film. Then the Battle of 5 armies can commence, taking up most of the last third. This would of course be followed up with a denoument--Bilbo returning home etc. The very last scene should be Gollum leaving the mountain cave and Gandalf smoking his pipe looking perplexed as Bilbo tells his tale to a young Frodo--thus setting up LOTR just in case the bridging film is never made.

And I also wrote this:

I was just using the example of the Balrog scene to indicate the flashback approach. It would have to be much longer and would roughly cover much of the first half of film 2, but as the Council sequence catches up in time with Bilbo and the dwarves we would see more inter-cutting.

There would definitely have to be at least one set-up/lead-in Gandalf/ Council scene though in film 1. Perhaps two. But it would leave off at a cliff-hanger for that story line so it will be clear in the second film.

And, yes, the first movie would then be more in keeping with the Children's Adventure Story/Fairy Tale approach. Then the second film would become closer to the action style of LOTR. That's how I would do it and how I intuit PJ and Del Toro are going to film it.

Anyway, those were my thoughts. I do think there are any number of ways of filming it, but this seems the best approach to maintain the "children's story" aspect in at least the first Hobbit film. But if they are going to balance the Dark and Light material throughout both films, then more options are available.

Gandalf's Beard

Another film that comes to mind that I think captures this idea, is Legend. There is a sense of innocense that is convincingly conveyed by many of the characters. Jack and Lil live in an idyllic world where all is light and laughter, yet Ridley Scott manages to juxtapose this with the malevolence of Tim Curry's portrayal of Darkness without it becoming SO dark and dangerous that it stops feeling like a children's faerie tale.

i will have to check out that movie. for some reason i have never seen it! Blockbuster here i come!!!!

Whatever the plan is, we can trust Del Toro. If he includes the background material (Council of Elrond, Appendices, the Necromancer) he will have to make that an element of foreshadowing without ruining the drama of Thorin's quest. So there will be an interesting contrast between Bilbo's innocent, funny, almost swashbuckling adventure and his stout and sometimes comic reaction to the horrors he faces (I mean, giant spiders, dark forests and Riddles in the Dark? That's not traditional children's fare, it's borderline Bram Stoker) and Gandalf's slow piecing together of what he learns from the Wood Elves, The Rangers (little hope for the White Council as Chris Lee won't be returning) and his own travels, making his impatience with the Dwarves and Bilbo more a result of his own worry and mounting fears. Gandalf doesn't care about Thorin's gold, he just wants Smaug brought down, before the dragon can join forces with the Necromancer. At Bag-End Gandalf basically tells Thorin to focus on Smaug and leave the Necromancer to others. This approach gives Gandalf motives, or an agenda, and ties together Del Toro's films and Jackson's. And whoever suggested Gollum leaving his cave at the end of the movie is a brilliant person. Something like that would definitely tie it all together elegantly.

A footnote on Laketown. Cranes, reeds and fish is a good idea, but let's hope they don't go for the thematic approach, like the cave scene in the Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince where everything was basically built around crystals and shells. The lake should seem important to the town, but the town shouldn't be decorated with smooth rocks, fish bones or anything like that. As for the ethnicity, just think like Tolkien; language and geography. Laketown folk were related to Rohan folk, but lived further north, and the roots of their language is similar (Northern-Germanic). "Bard" is a Nordic name, therefore his people should be Nordic in style, perhaps with a more medieval twist.

Oh and Gimli's accent in the LotR is Welsh-sounding (puts me in mind of coal-miners) so hopefully Del Toro's dwarves will talk similarly.

Hmmm. I always thought Gimli (in the films) sounded more like our Scottish in-laws, than our Welsh cousins . Our fellow Scottish forum member Felagund seemed to think so too. But, there is plenty of Celt (and Pict) to go around so who knows?

In any case, I agree with you 1000 % that Del Toro has earned our trust Gollum's Lab. Pan's Labyrinth really sealed the deal for me. I think you are right also regarding the darker tone of the Hobbit to standard children's fare.

But I think that is because British children's books have traditionally not condescended to kids, unlike the often more sentimental American Authors (excepting Mark Twain). From Dickens to Tolkien, and Dahl to Rowling, British authors tend not to sugarcoat weighty topics like death.

GB

I'm both exceedingly excited and concerned about The Hobbit as a movie (or in this case, two movies).

The Hobbit was the first substantial book that I read as a child. I was about 8 when I read it, and in many ways I relate to Bilbo in that I was bright eyed and innocent as I was drawn into the adventure contained in the book. It opened my mind's eye to adventure and gave me my appetite for reading in general.

The mix of danger, excitement, wonder and at times even comedy truly were magical to me. The scene with the trolls bickering over what to do with the dwarves, the passage into and out of goblin town, riddles in the dark with Gollum, the spiders of Mirkwood (including Bilbo's mockery of them), the escape from the elven caverns, and of course everything associated with Smaug, each have the potential to be epic moments in filmmaking if done right. I remember spending hours as a boy imagining about the glory of Smaug's hoard. Oh how I wanted to search through it for a magnificent suit of armour, shield, sword, and spear to equip myself as a great warrior.

I don't know if Del Toro understands the scope of what he is trying to accomplish. Whether dealing with scary spiders, the overwhelming presence of Smaug, or the comedic brutish bickering of the trolls, Del Toro must always maintain the child-like wonder of the story. It is a bedtime story, and needs to maintain a hint of that innocent feeling even in the darkest and most frightening parts of the story.

In summary, Del Toro must capture the wonder and hint of innocence in the book. Without those, it will never truly be The Hobbit to me.

I pray Del Toro can do it right.