women do fight in wars. I was deployed to Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq twice. I have killed enemy soldiers, and have been decorated for valour in combat. We may not be combat arms, but we do get into the thick of it..


And what about Eowyn?? she is reminiscint of Brynhild, a shield-maiden in Norse Lore.

Eowyn is my fave human character in lotro. My 2 faves are Peregrin Took and Meriadoc Brandybuck,

B'arelyn - I have indeed read the biography by Carpenter (most of it at any rate ... I think I finished it but it was a while ago ). I'd like to get the J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide too if I can scrounge together enough money. Actually, it's on sale at Amazon. I'll have to consider this.

tookish - Women have only been in the military for a very short time and have been in actual combat situations for even shorter (as you probably know), so given Tolkien's era, not to mention the setting of his books, I'm not surprised that women do not play much of an active military role. The obvious exception to this is of course Eowyn, as you mention.

tookish thats amazing that you have seen action in Afganistan and Iraq, where do you come from and what are your views on the war in Afganistan?

Hello All,

This thread is certainly a doozy! I read page one and two and lost my way.

Obviously there are some deep thinkers on this thread. I must say, I'm a simple kind of Hobbit and probably should not risk joining this adventure - but perhaps there's some Took blood running in my veins... so... Um! Where to start? I know, I'll just start blurting things out as they come...

Folks, my wife and I have been in partnership a long time and neither of us are yet to work out where the feminine role ends and the masculine begins -well, the lines can get awfully blurred!

The relation between male and female has always been fraught with difficulty. It's never been a static thing - never ever as far as I can tell. Overt power seems to have laid mainly in the Paternal sphere - but I don't believe that women have necessarily always been made powerless merely because of that - they have just needed to be smarter than Men in claiming their measure of control.

The modern Western world has become fairer to women, power is shared better - for the better. This is a great positive. Full involvement by all humans must improve the number of competent people running things! This in no way can erode my respect for women - it's just that they have become, in the past twenty years or so, 'legally' equal.

Women have always looked after themselves - obviously most often in difficult circumstances - and this hasn't changed. The times might be fairer (and more sensible) nowadays, but it's wrong to think women ever depended more on men than men did on women.

Hey! I treat people who deserve respect with respect. I'm less patient with people who don't earn it. Gender generally seems irrelvant to me when it comes to 'thought' and 'action'.

And, by the way, I'm a cop and I know from experience that gals, pound for pound, are as tough as guys. Some guys are really big and tough and some guys are quite meek and mild. The same goes for women. We're all different.

I must say, it amazes me how unliberated a lot of you younger lads are! (You don't fool me with all your clever rhetoric!) And here it was me thinking it was my generation that was the last of the Neanderthals!

Regards,
Odo

NB The basic physical differences between men and women I still like very much. My wife feels the same. She is a feminist - but not one of those who hates Menfolk as the starting point of her life-philosophy. We co-operate, you see.

I somehow had a feeling we might be on the same page on this topic Odo .

I'm sorry you got lost though. It's probably my fault . Back when the forum began, Otto's World and I had an extensive conversation taking up the better part of this thread, and the thread On Fairy Stories. I'm afraid the conversation veered all over the map into related digressions (we have a bad habit of that at this forum ). Being relatively new to posting at forums, we just continued blithely away, wherever the conversation led (it seemed easier than starting new topic threads and trying to follow the conversation from thread to thread. Oh...look...I'm doing it right now ).

Anyhoo, when you're feeling a bit bored and want to see what the Beard likes to blather about left to his own devices (and with an Intellectual Lass to encourage him ), you might want to peruse this thread (and the Fairy Story thread) at your leisure .

GB

GB, I do get lost among all the threads, I must say. Btw I think I've said enough about Feminism, so I'll duck off, I think.

tookish: I'm impressed by your war record. I got a Commendation once. I was with four cops when they got shot (none fatal) by a guy with mental problems. I managed to duck. I didn't let off a shot, though it was tricky there for a time. The guy shot himself in the end - but I got a Commendation anyway. Crazy world we live in.

Regards,
Odo

Alrighty then, I think we need a little History lesson .

There were many ancient Warrior Women, mostly Pagan back in the day. The notion that women should not be warriors is largely a product of what I call Third Wave Paganism and Monotheism, when Goddess worship was stomped under the heel of Patriarchy.

Yes, there were real Amazons, not exactly like the ones described in Greek Mythology, but real nonetheless. From the Women Warriors who rode with the Mongol Hordes, to the Women Warriors of ancient Germanic Tribes, the archaeological evidence abounds with skeletons of Women buried with their Weapons.

And who could forget such Warrior Women as Queen Boadicea who led an uprising of Celtic tribes against the Romans in ancient Britain.

Then there's Queen Artemisia, Queen of Herodotus' homeland who led a phalanx against the Greeks in Xerxe's multi-national invading force.

How about Queen Samsi of Arabia, who led an armed rebellion against Assyrian King Tiglath Pileser III?

The Women of ancient Crete fought alongside the men to stave off attempted invasions.

And even within the last 2,000 years, we find such Women Warriors as Joan of Arc.

So, grab your reading glasses , and please, do a little research before implying that Tolkien didn't write about Warrior Women (excepting Eowyn) because there weren't very many. The fact that Tolkien at least included Eowyn as a Warrior, and Galadriel in a Leadership role, demonstrates that despite the Quest being largely a "boy's club", he recognized that many Women held considerable Power at one time, before being reduced to chattel in a most cultures for a couple thousand years.

Okay, Tirade over

GB

Well I could be more proficient at history, but I don't think there were many warrior women in Victorian England (the inspiration for the Shire) or Anglo-Saxon England (an inspiration for the Rohirrim) or Egypt, Greece, or Rome (all of which could be seen as inspirations for the Numenoreans/Exiles. If I'm mistaken though, please let me know.

In any event though, I agree that there were plenty of female characters in Middle-earth.

EDIT: I should ask, was there much knowledge of these warrior women in Tolkien's day, at least beyond the academic historians?

Well, Queen Boadicea led a Celtic rebellion against Romans in Britain. And the Anglo-Saxons that invaded and settled in Britain were Germanic, and their Women often fought alongside the Men too, giving rise to the Valkyrie myths. And yes, Tolkien did know this stuff, hence Eowyn. Boadicea was revived as a British icon during the reign of
Queen Victoria.

As for the Greeks, their Real Women Warriors gave rise to the Amazon legends. And in the 1821 war of independence from the Ottomans, Greece's first naval commander was a woman. Apparently, a few years ago the remains of two Roman Women Warriors were found in Britain.

The idea that Ancient Women Warriors of Europe and Asia are a myth, is increasingly belied by modern archaeological evidence as well as the historical record which already existed. Women in pre-monotheist cultures had a much greater role than they have had in the last 1500-2000 years.

And there is a lot of stuff I've glossed over because my memory is hazy, but if you google Women Warriors in History or Ancient Women Warriors, you will find a lot more than even I have mentioned.

It really is a fascinating subject. I think you will have a lot of fun exploring it

GB

I didn't know that, I will have to find out more. I thought that Amazon legends were inspired by cultures in the Black Sea area east of Greece though, but my memory may be incorrect. I didn't know about Anglo-Saxon women warriors....

I still wonder if this was really known in Tolkien's time though.