The Hobbit Movie Forum

[Otto's World]

Yikes, that's a lot of books. I don't like Lewis's space trilogy either, but he DOES speak explicitly about the role of the sexes there. You may argue that his wife Joy changed his attitudes drastically, I don't know.

I do know though, that the Inklings at least talked about these things and that Charles Williams also had interesing ideas about the relationships of the sexes. He uses the Galations line about "bearing one another's burdens" as a model for life. A woman cannot grow a baby without the participation of a man. A man obviously needs a woman to do the same. This is a model of interdependence that is how the sexes are meant to relate to one another. Cooperation and "getting up to get the spouse the drink of water in the night." Things spouses do for each other--little sacrifices that may be easier for one to do to relieve or help the other so that the math comes out as more--that doesn't make sense. If another human is stumbling and having a hard time, there may be something that I can do that is very easy for me but that helps that other person a lot. Silmilarly, others can do things for me that help me a lot but which cost them less than the amount of my gain. The model involves each person leveraging their own God-given gifts (easy and often pleasant work) so that the good achieved outweighs the cost.

I'm glad you got The Discarded Image. That's fundamental and will give you a lot of bang for your reading effort buck.

Yes, I pity an author working on such a project. One would have to keep notes on all ideas and sources where ideas came from, marking up books and using tons of Post-Its. I would have a hard time remembering it all.

Now what I am interested in is what books you recommend for understanding more Pagan ideas.

[Gandalfs Beard]

I must dash now. I will be back this evening.

Gandalfs Beard

[Gandalfs Beard]

Alrighty Then, This may take a couple of posts as material from 2.5 decades filters back into my consciousness . Some of it comes from investigative articles on archaeology and anthropology, and some from documentaries; in which case sourcing will be difficult. Also, I am not sure exactly which of my sources contain what material (which is why I will have to do a lot of source reconstruction for my "thesis"). However, the following will be a list of Books or Author/Scholars whose work I have read a lot of or about:

Riane Eisler--The Chalice and the Blade--A feminist scholar whose work rocked the foundation of Anthropology and is largely the basis for anthropological research since. She has written other books which I have yet to read, but have read about.
Elaine Pagels--Another feminist Scholar, whose work analysing the Gnostic texts at the same time Eisler published her works similarly established a new foundation for the study of early Chistianity. She has written numerous books including the seminal The Gnostic Gospels, Adam and Eve and the Serpent, and a book on the Gospel of Judas.
Joseph Campbell--Who you already know--The Power of Myth is a summation of his life's work and he is also well known for an early book The Hero With a Thousand Faces. He is also an undisputed Scholar (despite some misgivings about his earliest work written before the advent of Feminism and Identity Politics which caused him to re-examine some of his assumptions).
Mircea Eliade--A History of Religious Ideas--The Myth of the Eternal Return--Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstacy--The Forge and the Crucible--Another influential Scholar of the mid 20th century whose work has influenced many. His work is wide ranging with a focus on Eastern Traditions and Shamanism (but also includes comparative analysis with Western Traditions).

I am going to post now before a Gremlin gets this lot. I'll chime back in later this evening with more.

[Otto's World]

Thank you for the info thus far, GB. I'll ask some more specific questions, because you introduced some things I didn't know very much about at all and I'd like a place to start in case I want to investigate further.

Where did you learn about Mithraism (sp?) the sun god religion with the lion's face who borrowed all of his best metaphors from Jesus Christ? [When I read about the lion's face my toes tingled.]

How did you learn about the Green Man?

Where did you learn about the Horned God and that he was turned into Satan and nine million other images?


I know it's almost impossible to remember if things came from the History Channel or Frontline. I TiVo-ed From Jesus to Christ[on Frontline], which may have some of this.

[Gandalfs Beard]

That's what I am trying to figure out. I can't remember precisely who said what now. I'll have to hit up my friend and see if he can remind me which of the authors and their books have the answers to your questions

I have tried googling and there is a lot of info on the subject. But I'd rather lead you to sources I know and trust. I know a lot of the info is in some of the books I mentioned. I'll probably start remembering as I fall asleep, wake up and start posting later tonight.

Gandalfs Beard

[Gandalfs Beard]

Otto's World, my friend was watching a movie last night when I called. He will help me some time today with a source list directly addressing your questions. He has his sourcing much more organized than I do, due to necessity for his programme and website. He said Eisler is good on the Goddess but doesn't reference the Horned God as much as I "remember" and has some other books more deeply instructive on that material. I am fairly certain that Campbell's work touches on the Horned God and Terence McKenna definitely talks about the Horned Goddess (I had forgotten She also was Horned)

I really can't recommend Terence McKenna highly enough. As I said, he is more speculative--but he is so highly informed his speculations are worth more than a lot of experts "facts." Though he and his brother's work focus on the Shamanistic use of Psilocybin and Ayahuasca, he factors many ideas into his equations. As an Irish American he has the Gift of Gab, is quite funny, and clear and easily understood. His books are as entertaining as they are informative and his lectures (available on Audio) are also. If you find his website, I suspect some of his talks may be archived. Find History Ends in Green and give it a listen. I think some of this material is in that audio discussion.

Food of the Gods-- is absolutely fascinating, and is his strongest evidence supported Theory of the emergence of High Consciousness in humankind. He discusses Catal Huyuk (the Archaeological excavation site dating back nearly 8000 years in what is modern day Turkey where many artifacts relating to the Horned God and Goddess have been found). Eisler discusses the dig site also.

The Archaic Revival-- is another seminal work of his. It is a collection of his essays and transcriptions of talks and interviews. It covers everything from Medieval Classicism and Alchemy to discussions of McLuhan and Artificial Intelligence. I think the Matrix films were heavily inspired by his work.

I'll be back later after my friend straightens me out and brings me back into focus.

Gandalfs Beard

[Otto's World]

Good, GB.Thank you. Also I am TOTALLY razzed and jazzed to read Discarded Image together with you. Collegial means "reading together," and colleague derives from that idea. ...If you would like that, of course.

[Gandalfs Beard]

Would I ever, Otto's World I would like nothing better. I feel one is more informed when one can discuss a book as one is reading it. I'll let you know as soon as it arrives.

Gandalfs Beard

[Gandalfs Beard]

I haven't heard back from my friend yet, Otto's World. But I wanted to clarify some points on Mithra. I gained knowledge about this ancient mystery religion probably first in the late 1980s, just hearing about it in documentaries or lectures. I believe Joseph Campbell discusses Mithra in his Power of Myth series.

I should start by saying why I put the term:...Christianity "borrowing" from Mithraism in quotes. Mithra was apparently undergoing a Roman revival during a period dating roughly 100BC - 200/300AD. This is debated among scholars, but the evidence largely supports this and most scholars at least agree on this much.
Many Modern Christian scholars sensing this puts the Gospels in jeopardy of losing it's claim to Exclusive truth deny the similarities. Basing their denial largely on a Mithra Scholar's over-reaching regarding a story (just one story) involving Mithra and a Bull. And also on the fact that Mithra's (the Roman Version) content shared much in common with other Pagan religions. I shall examine both of these arguments.

Mithra actually seems to be an iteration of Mitra, a Hindu sub-deity, also lion-headed and a god of light or the sun (later versions seem to be Maitreya) supposedly born of a virgin, some of the dating for this myth ranges back 4000 years. Then Mithra appears in the Babylonian pantheon somewhere between 1400 and 600BC. There is a lot of dispute regarding this, but there is definitely some physical evidence for Mithra's Babylonian appearance no matter what. Most scholars seem to have at least agreed that original notions that Mithra was tied to Zoroastrianism are highly speculative with little supporting evidence.

To be continued:

[Gandalfs Beard]

To continue: The Romans then picked up on Mithra, as already stated, somewhere in the century before Jesus. They called Him Mithras. There are some substantive alterations to the religion involving caves as temples of worship; and apparently the story of Mithras tackling a Bull (the Horned God maybe?). Because the Babylonian Mithra didn't have a Bull tackling story associated with him, some Christians make the illogical leap that the Roman Mithras and the older Mithra bear no relation to each other. Somehow this is an argument against Christianity "borrowing" from Mithras and hence Mithra/Mitra .

The other argument is that Mithras had a number of similarities with other Pagan religions: i.e. the Winter Solstice festivals marking the rebirth of the sun on the date December 25th. This argument also seems detached from logic. The fact that a number of other Pagan religions shared some points of reference doesn't detract from the fact that Early Christianity also shared points of reference; in fact, more points of similarity than the other Pagan religions to Mithras/Mithra/Mitra.

Joseph Campbell's thesis, that all the ancient myths have common roots could hardly be more apt. So, in summary, the term "borrowed" may not be the most accurate descriptor. "Shared" mythology might be better.

Anyway, Hopefully my buddy will know some books on the subject that explore this topic with a fairly balanced view. My own knowledge is based on a number of years of piecing together from half remembered sources.

Cheerio, for now -- Gandalfs Beard