No, they clearly weren't fascists. But I don't think Paul Ford is correct about the back-to-nature thing. It's more likely they were Communists or British Socialists (remember my Mom said the undergarments were called Liberty wear). My mother was raised in a Catholic family but my Grandma apparently got her some of those undergarments.

The whole Pagan, Occult, Hitler thing is way overblown by people trying to deflect attention from the much more documented Catholic/Fascist connection. Hitler did indeed seek occult artifacts (if I remember correctly Himmler was in charge of that) as another means to Power. But for the most part they were after Christian based Occult symbols, as the Indiana Jones films attest to (one of the more accurate things from the movies). It is also true that Hitler promoted (on a minor level) Odinism. But folks who claim Hitler and the Nazis weren't "Christian" are trying to rewrite history (though, obviously they didn't follow Christs example of peace and love). The whole Get The Jews thing is a dead giveaway. Even Muslims weren't anti-jew until the late 19th century when the Colonial powers started stirring up trouble in the Middle East.

I think more people will start posting again after the weekend when all the New Years Parties are done with. I have the same Sinus thing right now, but I can't stay away either. I haven't visited the Spare Oom yet, you will find most of my debates under the Narnia and Christianity section of that forum. There are several threads there I've been posting on. My most severe critic is The Black Glove. I've actually got quite chummy with Dr Ransom though.

Gandalfs Beard

Oh, One more point about Eustace and his parents. The back-to-nature crowd were into Faeries and the like, and my mother says they wore those undergarments too. But the clincher for my point is that he and his parents didn't believe in Faeries or the imagination. They were Lewis's stereotype of people who only believed in science and technology. Eustace was always on about engineering and Proper Ships and facts and figures. That really is the capper. I think I should email Paul F Ford so he can update his next edition .

Gandalfs Beard

No Joke Otto's World, I did indeed e-mail Paul F Ford. I now anxiously await a reply .(well this smiley does look a little anxious)

Gandalfs Beard

I bet he will write you back! You are asking an interesting question, and one that is kind of peripheral to the stories, so evidently does not get a lot of discussion, so I would think he would be interested. And he probably does not get absolutely buried in mail. Oh, FUN!! But do you think maybe your mom is just as likely to be a good source of knowledge for the Eustace thing?

Hi Otto's World, as my mother was born in 1944 and has a brilliant memory; her account buttresses my notions extremely well. I remember as a child reading about Eustace, and my very first impression was that he was a tech nut, hardly the product of back-to-nature parents. His parents are described in the books as disapproving of fairy tales and imagination. It was all facts and figures for them.

Gandalfs Beard

Going back to Beren's original post I will add my two cents to the mix. He states that women in the past were more respected than today. I will both agree and disagree. (readers of my posts, notice a theme yet with me?)
Men and women will (in my opinion) never be "equal". I say this in regards to men and women being the same. I believe this for the simple reason that men and women are not the same, if you have any doubts, see a doctor. That being said, this doesn't mean that one is better than the other, just different.
Much of these arguments will include lots of stereotypes, which the politically correct crowd tells us are wrong and evil. But the interesting thing about stereotypes is that often they exist for a reason. "Women are more understanding and compassionate while more are more direct and aggressive". PC teaches us that this is incorrect, but life teaches us that it is not always true, but often does serve as a predominately truthful start.

For my agreeing with Beren I will go on to say that the hay day of Chivalry was excellent. Opening doors, letting women go first. In a word, manners. What's more are those good manners towards women also lead to good manners towards everyone. The success of women’s right could be seen with relation to the decline of proper manners. They said to stop treating them so good and therefore people don't treat anyone good.

I will disagree because I do believe that people can be courteous and polite while expecting the same of women. Take opening the car door for example. In days past the man should go to her door and open it. In a balanced society she would in turn unlock his door while he circled the car. Not equal, but balanced.

I think that's just where this ramble will be heading, balance. I am against putting women on a huge pedestal and becoming a thrall to their throne. But I also am against the expectation that women will be exactly the same as men. There will be difference, but there should be balance.

The later successful phase of the Women’s Suffrage Movement coincided with WWI. Virginia Woolfe, in A Room of One’s Own, suggests that the loss of that romantic delicate polite way of feeling ended with The War. What do you think? I’ve got that book, Tolkien and the Great War, on my bookshelf. Must actually read it. Anyway, there were more things going on than the Women’s Movement to change social norms and feelings

Hi Show, Yeah... verily that is that is my ultimate goal I have rambled all over the map on this thread and others. But in the end my case is that Chivalry is about returning balance to the world. In ancient Pagan times before Sky Gods ruled, though the Feminine was the Godhead (as Lifebringer) she was balanced by her consort the Lord of the Hunt (the Horned God). If you have followed the conversation through all it's iterations ,I think you see we are saying much the same thing. I am glad to see your tuppence on this topic.

Gandalfs Beard

GB, in your thoughts on the possible book, and using the theme of balance and pagan-ish-ness, have you thought much about Lewis's space trilogy? There's a theme of Mars and Venus in Perelandra and he lays those ideas out in almost-essay fashion. Then there's the story of Mark and Jane in That Hideous Strength. And Jane is ambivalent about her role as wife because of her ideas about equality.

Hello Otto's World , I had never particularly cared for those books when I first read them years ago. They didn't seem to have the magic and charm I found in Narnia. Having said that; before I can hope to complete such a book as I dare to write, I must be thoroughly researched. So I intend to read them again, this time with a watchful eye. In fact, I must embark on a course of study as serious as any Grad Student or Professor of Medievalism . I cannot simply rest my propositions on half-remembered books of eclectic reading (though I intend to use that material too).

In aid of this project; my friend is giving me a copy of Lewis's The Discarded Image -- A treatise based upon the course on Medievalism Lewis himself taught. I also discovered (synchronistically or serendipitously) a book in the 50 cent sale at the library called The Medieval Expansion of Europe. I am currently re-reading the Silmarillion (but I must find a cheap used copy to mark for notes) and the Book of Lost Tales (already full of JRR and Christopher Tolkiens notes). And of course I will read as many biographies as I can find. Oh, let's not forget Planet Narnia. Then also, I must slog my way through reams of Lewis's Apologetics . On a more fun note, I shall have to obtain and read Lewis's books of letters (Tolkiens Too). I will also have to find and re-read all the old books that I have already read,etc. etc. . It's safe to say this project will take several years of research (though I wll try to write it as I go along). Whew! I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

I have already begun drawing up a reading list. And I will nead to print out some of the conversations here and on Narniaweb that I have engaged in. Thanks to Beren, I now have my own copy of Tolkien's Fairy Story essay. Anyway my work is cut out for me. Feel free to regale me with any suggestions . And thank you for the many you have already proffered on these threads. My task awaits.

Gandalfs Beard