The Hobbit Movie Forum

[Shane333]

Gandalfs Beard mentions elves as sort of Vulcans of Middle Earth, in that they are more logical.

I can see how he would arrive at that perspective, but mine is very different.

As immortals, elves have a more "eternal" perspective. They are able to grasp the big picture more readily, mostly because they've been around long enough to personally witness many historic cycles. They've had time to properly mature on an individual level, and as a people.

We know elves can act irrationally and even immorally. Just look at Feanor and those who followed him (which interestingly enough includes Galadriel). For greed and pride the Noldor went chasing after a jewel, and committed murder against their own elvish kin on more than one occasion and on multiple continents in their quest to get it. It's the reason why, by the Third Age, the Noldor language(Quenya) is all but banished from Middle Earth except in private usage or in ceremony.

And that isn't the only case. I forget his name, but for petty pride and jealousy an elf attempted to murder Turin.

Then there were Eol and Maeglin, both evil elves, with Maeglin being the most evil elf in Middle Earth history.

My point is that Elves are fallible just like dwarves and men. They've just been around long enough to learn from their mistakes (for the most part) and see a bigger picture than men or even dwarves usually see.

[Gandalfs Beard]

Actually, I agree Shane. Vulcans act more logical, but a lot of it is just outward appearance. They are often fallible and arrogant to boot. And I think your point about the "eternal" perspective applies to Vulcans too. I think Vulcans are based on Elves rather than the opposite (they came later after all ).

GB

[Shane333]

I didn't see Jackson's Gimli as strictly comic relief. It seemed to me, more that his relationship with Legolas was played as comic relief. I thought Gimli did seem at times in the films like a "down to business" type of personality, yet fun to be around at parties .

GB

It comes out more strongly in the extended edition than in the theatrical release. Gimli chugging ale (with half of it going down his beard), wiping his mouth with his beard, followed by a big belch. That sort of thing.

[Shane333]

Actually, I agree Shane. Vulcans act more logical, but a lot of it is just outward appearance. They are often fallible and arrogant to boot. And I think your point about the "eternal" perspective applies to Vulcans too. I think Vulcans are based on Elves rather than the opposite (they came later after all ).

GB

Very good point. Well put.

[Eldorion]

If I recall correctly from my readings years ago, at the time that Sauron assailed Minas Tirith, he also sent forces to assail the remaining elven strongholds (Rivendell and Lothlorien) as well as the dwarves, both to keep them from uniting against him and just in case one of them was concealing the One Ring from him.

Well, Sauron thought had a fairly good idea where the Ring was before he attacked Minas Tirith (after Pippin looked in the Palantir, later revised after Aragorn did the same). But he did send forces to attack Erebor, Mirkwood, Lorien, and even a few towards Fangorn. I don't recall any mention of an attack on Rivendell, though.

[Eldorion]

Durin - the Elves left Middle-earth largely because their part in the grand cosmic "scheme" of Arda (the "world", but more than just the planet) was finished. They were paving the way for Men, but they were destined to leave Middle-earth. The Valar themselves encouraged this, and eventually even those Elves who resisted realized that the time had come to give the world over to Men. Fortunately for them they still had a place they could dwell: the Undying Lands.

I have always been curious who would rule Middle Earth, whether it be Hobbits, Men, or Dwarves, or even Elves, who would come back in a New Age, with an un-explicable amount of Magic.

Hobbits - the Prologue to LOTR tells us that the numbers of hobbits have dwindled, and The Hobbit refers to their tendency to hide around the Big Folk. One would imagine this tendency has increased since there are no hobbits to be found these days (you may know of Tolkien's "conceit" that his writings were historical records of the long-distant pats of our own earth).

Dwarves - the draft of Appendix A.III given in The History of Middle-earth XII states that eventually "the days of the Dwarves" would end. I take this to mean that they would die out, even though I don't particularly like this sad interpretation. On the other hand, this passage is not given in the published version, though one must still wonder where all the dwarves went. Perhaps they are still hiding belowgrounds.

Elves - before the end of the world (the extremely obscure Dagor Dagorath, similar to the Norse Ragnarok) I don't think this would happen. After that even though - the destruction of the world as it is known - what happens is anyone's guess. Before then though, the world remains under the Dominion of Men.

[Gandalfs Beard]

I prefer to think that Hobbits and Dwarves mingled with certain human populations Eldorion. There is a sizable community of Little Folk in Hollywood for example , that is made up of dwarves (people whose limbs are disproportionately short compared to there torsos and heads) and...erm...I am uncertain as to the inoffensive term ..."midgets" (little people who are proportioned "normally"). I hope my use of these terms hasn't offended anyone. I probably should have googled to find the correct terminology.

In any case, Hobbits are like the latter group of people. So the notion that Dwarves and Hobbits live among us isn't entirely implausible . And judging by the physical appearance of many Brits (such as myself), Hobbit features can be found amongst larger folk...ahem...Susan Boyle...Cough , which would indicate intermarriage.

Oh, if only Elves were as accessible **sigh**.

GB

[Eldorion]

You raise an interesting point GB: whether intermarriage and reproduction would be possible between Hobbits and Men (or Dwarves and Men). We do know that it was possible between Men and Elves (thereby making them, by definition, the same species), and

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.

We learn from this that both Hobbits and Dwarves are closer relatives to Men than Elves, thereby suggesting (to me, at least) that all of the Children of Iluvatar, including the adopted ones, were the same biological species. This would therefore suggest that reproduction - half-hobbits and half-dwarves, as it were - would be possible. Whether or not this would happen is a different matter though, and more a question of sociology than biology.

The above quote though does mention estrangement between Hobbits and Men, so I wouldn't think that they intermarried in any significant numbers. I can't really say about Dwarves though.

Never really thought about this before.

[anaclangon]

I would like to respond briefly to the point of 'eternal' perspective.

In the TV series Babylon 5 an alien called "lorien" who was the first one. Made the comment that only a mortal species like man can truly believe that love is eternal, and that illusion may be the greatest gift ever given to man."

I think that the elves, while seeming logical or arrogant, were not. Nor were they intended to appear that way. They were quite fallible, as the rebellion of Feanor clearly shows.

I loved Hugo Weavings portrayal of Elrond, but Im not sure that he would have disdain for men, as a resignation on fighting an evil that appeared unstoppable, and that the elves themselves help to empower. Sauron, beguiled the ring smiths in the Erigon and helped to create the rings of power.

The difference between the elves and men in my view is that elves live a whole lot longer to regret thier mistakes.

[Eldorion]

I loved Hugo Weavings portrayal of Elrond, but Im not sure that he would have disdain for men

The whole "Men are weak" thing that movie-Elrond had going on ruined the character for me. It was far too reminiscent of Agent Smith for my taste (I love that picture ). Elrond's dislike of Men seemed to be a large factor in his dislike of Aragorn in the movies and it got old for me very fast (and sort of killed the homeliness of the Last Homely House when he was scowling constantly, like during the Council).