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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:17 pm 
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Eldorion,

I was being a bit of a Devils Advocate when I suggested LOTR was 'Juvenile Fiction' to GB. I was waving a red rag, really. After all, GB and I have been exchanging a bit of banter ever since I popped my head into your site. (GB gives as good as he gets! I like that!)

Yes, what does it matter what genre TH and LOTR are in? I'm with you on that. We're just swanning around on a sea of semantics - and it's good fun, isn't it?

Odo

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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:14 am 
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Of course it's fun Odo! :mrgreen: I'm just saying that I'm not really sure how to classify it by age - ie. children's, juvenile, young adult ( :? ), adult, etc. I think it fits into the Science Fiction/Fantasy genre overall though, but I see that as a different matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:01 am 
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Eldorion

You made me think of something I've always found interesting since I learned of it. Rayner Unwin when reviewing TH suggested it would suit, I think, 5-9 year olds. I read it at about 12 - and loved it - but I reckon I would have struggled to get through it if I had tried to read it earlier. And some of the themes and concepts, I thought more likely to interest much older children (including, maybe, adults). TH is not very formulaic when I think about it. It is not the straight forward story some people make it out to be. According to acceptable modern publishing standards (for fantasy), it might not be published if it was submitted today! Thank goodness for young Rayner! I don't think it was (generally) acceptable even back then!

But I ramble...

Odo

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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:47 am 
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I did read the Hobbit at about 7 or 8 myself (did I mention Mum was a schoolteacher and had me reading at an early age). Then it was just another Fairy Tale, but better, more Epic. But re-reading it as an adult through the years, I get so much more out of it. So many layers of context are woven into the fabric.

As I re-read a few pages of The Hobbit earlier tonight, it reinforced my view that between the advanced language, the layers of meaning and mythopoetic allusions, the Hobbit really is much more than a "children's" book, even though that was Tolkien's originally intended audience. But then most Tolkien Fans seem more advanced linguistically than readers who just read "the other sort" (to borrow a phrase from Lewis).

GB

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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:14 am 
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GB

I must say there a lot of very young people on this site who seem so stunningly erudite and well read. It's wonderful to see, but quite daunting really. How did they all become so wise so young? It's often said each new generation is smarter than the one preceding it. And this site does seem to support the idea.

Odo

NB My kids keep telling me they're smarter than I am. I stamp my foot, yell "Balderdash!" and throw rocks at them. But I know they're right.

Hey! I hardly think it fair either that your Mum was a school teacher. What an unfair advantage! I had to marry a school teacher to get some intelligence into my bloodline!

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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:14 pm 
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I think Tolkien in particular just draws the intellectually (as well the imaginatively) inclined to his world :ugeek: . I have to admit though, as I get older, I have to rely on a sometimes faulty memory :roll: , and research for it's own sake. So it's great to have youngsters around with all the info at their fingertips :mrgreen: .

GB

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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:24 pm 
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I just realized that this thread is called 'Bofur'. Does that mean 'Bofur' is another word for 'Almost anything goes'?

Going home to bed now. See you folk later.

Odo

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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:29 pm 
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Poor Bofur. His thread has inadvertently become a "chat" thread :lol: . It seems that the New Members section of the forum has become a default "chat" sub-forum. We do discuss a lot of personal and non-Tolkien issues here.

GB

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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:47 pm 
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Hello friends!
It's your chat thread speaking lol :D
First of all I think it's a great honor to have your noob-ish comment expanded to a 4-pages chat thread(!)
Oh and please pardon my grammar or other errors, unfortunately english is not my mother language.
Anyway, I wanted to apologize for causing such a turbulence by calling the hobbit a "children's book". I never meant to insult or offend anyone in this forum or -even worse- imply anything about this excellent book. I'll be brief. Tolkien is simply peerless. He and his work belong to the world; he will ever have a place among the true geniuses of literature like Fiodor Dostoyefski, Franz Kafka, John Steinbeck and others.

What I meant by calling it a "children's book" is that I find it so much friendlier to younger readers than the Silmarillion or the LotR. Simple as that. Even if Tolkien himself hadn't implied it, it would still be a reasonable conclusion. Yet there lies the magnificence of Tolkien; He wrote a book about a small creature going out in the great world and making a difference. This notion itself is enough to grab a young reader's attention all through the end. A mature reader would be already there whithout any help.

I do not claim that I have enough knowledge about literature in general to even attempt to analyze Tolkien's writing. I am just grateful that he published his works and now everyone can enjoy them. And I think it's a shame to compare Tolkien's Arda with other lesser speciments of epic fantasy literature. Harry Potter? Who the h*** is that? It's like trying to compare a tall mountain with a pile of rocks- nonsense!
I for one thing, grew to cherish the english language because of Tolkien.

Someone said that when Tolkien wrote about Bilbo's magic ring he didn't know that it would turn out to be the One ring, one of the main motifs in the LotR. In the Hobbit we get only glimpses of the main theme that rules his other books- the climactic march towards a permanent transformation of the world. But that's perfectly understandable since it's the story of an adventure from the hobbit's point of view. Not Thorin's, not Gandalf's, not Beorn's. Bilbo's. So that the reader- even a young one- can relate more easily to the protagonist. The idea of the book is that of a journey to the unknown. As the hobbit slowly learns more about the world as he goes on, so does the reader slowly immerses himself into Tolkien's world. Your first impression of a merry little story changes very soon and dramaticaly. The story soon turns into a darker hue as places and characters get introduced, sometimes in detail, others with just a brief background story, others with none at all. Just the way human memory works. Take one of your journeys for example. Do u get to know and then recall every detail of every place u visited or person u 've met along the way?
Ahemm, well... pardon me friends, I got too excited.
Not a children's book, a book that would make even children go nuts! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Bofur
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:34 am 
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Wow Bofur!

English not your first language! You could have fooled me. You now make me think my first language isn't English either - I do struggle with it a bit (it's all the grammar I think - and all the borrowings of words from other languages! Yes, that must be it!).

You know it even makes me wonder what my first language might be?

As to this "Children's Book" discussion. I've had a bit of a back flip. I actually think it is quite accurate to call books like TH "Childrens Fiction". I'm thinking about oldies sitting around the cook fire in a cave (somewhere in France about 80,000 years ago - about five thousand if you happen to be a Creationist, of course) grunting guttural tales to explain to their children about things they didn't understand in the first place, but certainly were confident enough to speculate about!

Of course, all the older tribes-folk (cave-folk?) would have sat around chewing their elk and listening too with just as much interest...

Hey! And maybe Mature Fiction didn't even exist back then, which would make, by my reckoning, "Childrens' Fiction" actually "Adult Fiction" as well...

Now Ive really managed to confuse myself.

I don't know for sure, Bofe - if I may be so familiar! -but I feel your thread has got me thinking... that surely can't be good.

Odo

NB I find this thread terribly liberating... Thanks Bofur!

NB Where does the apostrophe go in Children's'? (And is it even an aposrophe? ''''')

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