The Hobbit Movie Forum

[Odo Banks]

Had a change of mind per my last post. The movie should probably start with Gorlim being tricked into believing his wife is still alive and his capture by the enemy, followed by his betrayal of Barahir's location. This could be a kind of prologue perhaps. I think T's story arc is best - yet again - and it might be best to stick with it!

This going to be hard to get right...

Odo

[Tar-Palantir]

I like it, Odo it lets the audience know why Beren is just wandering around on his own when he meets Luthien, and that's really where the Beren and Luthien Tale starts.
Great idea!

[Tinuviel]

I like the whole prolouge idea, only I would put the history of the Silmarils in it and the creation of Middle Earth a bit, to set the stage and age . Then start the movie with Gorlim's betrayal and then zooming over to the camp where orcs are running, and then going back between Beren and the attack. I think that would be a dramatic way to begin the movie. Maybe BEren could be hunting the warg, but then is startled when he hears the bird calling, and looks back toward his home and sees smoke. Then we could get some dramatic music as he runs back to the camp in vain. And then the story as it is!

[Odo Banks]

Remember, this a movie for the Tolkien fans! The only thing we need be careful about is setting scenes and characters properly - and of course with enough explanation to make it clear where we are in the story.

What I mean I'll try to explain by giving a (potential) example.

*

SCENE !@14*#
Huan (a great hound) finds Luthien despite her enchantments (remember he's from Valinor not easily duped). He takes her to meet Celegorm and Curufin. In conversation Luthien finds out who they are, and they her.

LUTHIEN:
"You are elves - and perhaps Noldorions, I see. Who are you?

CELEGORM:
You may not know us, but I know you, for the beauty of Luthien is renowned, and you surely can be no other! Let me introduce myself, I am Celegorm, and here you see my dear brother, Curufin.

LUTHIEN (slightly frowning):
You are sons of Feanor then!

CURUFIN (cynical smile):
That we are, your Highness, that we are!

*
Okay clumsy - not good - but you get the idea! Fans will know - non-fans can catch up when they will - at least they'll know they're elves and know their names. Mind you, by this time the brothers have already met Beren in Nagathrond, so the viewing audience should already know them. Luthien would be meeting them for the first time and need an introduction. The elves will guess that Luthien is searching for Beren (who by now is off questing with Finrod Felegund), but they will hardly mention that! And Huan's saying nothing at this stage.

Look, I 'm making this up as I go....! I hope you get what I'm driving at. Surely there are enough fans to make a Purist movie pay!

The Silmaril's and the Oath of Feanor's sons (and Morgoth, the Dark Lord, of course) can be mentioned here and there in passing to reinforce the drama, but not to dumb it down for non-Tolkienite heathens. (If the movie sends non-Tolkienites off to read the Silmarillion, all the better!)

Anyway, the story (romance and action) is good enough to allow for some minor confusion about the whys and wherefores. A lot of movies leave me wondering about unexplained details.

Odo

[Tinuviel]

Yes, but not too much unexplained. There are ways to fit in little details into dialouge that some people in the audience catch the first time, others after several. THat little bit you wrote Odo was quite good actaully. I constantly wonder how people would say things in this story, simply because of the little dialogue. But I always thought of Beren as a strong man with strong wits, and isn't afraid to laugh at danger. Luthien is brave and powerful, and takes on a different approach to danger. She faces it with her own light and beauty, and you don't really ever find a frightened Luthien other than when Beren almost dies (several times...) I find it interesting that Tolkien has a feminine hero here, and I think that women need to see that they can be the heroines, not just the men.

As to Luthien singing....
I believe when she is singing, its like far off harmonic music, and as you get closer to her, you hear her incredible voice, and your heart melts. Maybe something along the lines of New Age music perhaps? and in battle, when she begins to sing, all is silent and only her voice is heard. And the audience sees the results of her beautiful voice on the enemy. So you're hearing pretty, but seeing ugly...

[Odo Banks]

I imagine Beren as being quite young in physical terms, but made prematurely old (except in 'love' at the beginning) by his hard life in Dorthonian. I also imagine him being a quite humble not proud person (like Viggo was as Aragorn). And Luthien I see as quite fearless. In some ways I see their only true fear is the fear of losing each other. From the first time they look into each others eyes an unbreakable bond is formed.

I have an idea that the first word he utters in the movie is "Tinuviel!"

Beren up to now would have had quite a few (wordless) adventures, including all that horror and danger he endures in the valley of spiders and dark enchantment while on his way to Doriath. Imagine! Just when the audience begins to think, "Oh my goodness, this story is just too horrific and bleak to bear!" Beren comes stumbling through the Girdle of Melian into a sunlit forest glade - or similar - and sees HER for the first time. At last there is light and hope (and love) in the movie! He tries to come to her but she keeps disappearing on him, until at last, he gets close enough to call out one word, one name! "Tinuviel!"

Tinuviel, your music ideas are appealing, but it will be a real trick to get the feel right. Of course, not many things of true worth are ever easy, so the pain will be worth it! And btw thank you for your kindness regarding my little bit of dialogue.

And you too, Tar-Palantir, thanks for your enthusiasm and encouragement!

Talking over Tolkien's Great History surely gets the creative juices flowing, don't it!

Odo

[Tinuviel]

Indeed!
Only one thing.
Beren should utter some words, like when he takes the ring from the orcs and runs away. After that there really doesn't have to be dialogue other than short phrases and ONAMOTOPIA (i know i spelled that wrong...)
Otherwise, I'M LOVIN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is movie is as epic as the quest it's telling!

[Odo Banks]

Sorry, but I can't agree. If Beren regains the ring in silence, I think it will say more than him saying anything. His hate can shine, through brilliantly low-key acting. Obviously we need someone who can say a lot without saying anything! (You need a quality of young actor in the league of Ian McKellan for this. But who? Other thread anyway!) A few grunts and groans would be okay, of course.

I hope you don't think of him as a wise cracking braggart type? He must kill his enemies with chill intensity, I think. Remember, the Orcs fear him because of what he does hunting them in Doriath before Sauron arrives to hunt him with an army. I imagine him as a silent and clinical killer who actually turns the terror back on Morgoth's crew. Not with super strength and bravado, but with sheer efficiency. He must stalk his enemy ruthlessly but believably.

Beren's softer? lighter? side might come out after he meets Luthien. If he's unrelentingly dour, I don't think the character will work with audiences (including me).

I confess I don't know what ONAMOTOPIA is - whether spelt right or wrong! (I certainly hope Beren won't have to say it in the movie - irrespective of what it means!)

Hey! I just read "Of Beren and Luthien" again (second time in a week). It's certainly a very powerful story. I now understand why some say it is the center of T's creation. Only the closest of adaptations is acceptable!

I reckon some of T's prose can be reworked quite readily into dialogue by the way, which will help with the script writing.

Odo

[Tinuviel]

Onomatopia are words like WHOOSH or POW. words that make noise.
And I agree, beren shouldn't be a wise guy, but more so a person who, once he's met Luthien, has the confidence of a man in love.
And i think when beren takes the ring, right before he departs, should say something like, "This does not belong to you" with some venom and anger and sorrow as well. Just to set the stage.
Yet I feel that if there isn't enough dialogue, the story won't flow as easily. I saw this pochahontas movie with Colin Farell in it, and the majority of it was without dialogue, and i was completely lost because of it. Dialogue helps show passage of time. By no means am I implying that much of it is needed, but some perhaps...

[Odo Banks]

I'm thinking 20- - 30 minutes at start before Beren talks. It's his first word that counts: "Tinuviel!"

But I imagine the Orcs talking during Gorlim's capture and torture, and shortly later Sauron talking to Gorlim when the latter breaks and gives up Barahir's hideout. Gorlim's ghost also speaks to Beren.

My thoughts, of course, are evolving on this. We can use a series of quick scenes to show Beren stalking and killing Orcs in clever and unexpected ways, thus inducing their fear of him. This could be used as a device to show time passing. You know, Winter kills, Spring kills, Summer kills, Autum kills - four years swishing past, inter-spaced with scenes where he befriends wild things. After that, his journey through the forests in the Mountains of Terror on the flight to Doriath - which would not require talk, only building horror and action).

Odo